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Sheila Shaw

Not holing out before teeing off next tee

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(1) We have a group of senior men who play their own organised social 18 hole (stableford) game of golf each week. They tee off (say No 1), before playing their next shot they cross over to No 2 tee which is in near vicinity, tee off and then cross over again to complete No 1 hole, this is to save them walking back to No 2.

They do not pay match fees as this is not a match organised competition but they pay $1 which a percentage is paid out with the remaining accumulated and given to the Club as a donation.  We are aware they also give putts (was up to 6 inches but could be up to 18 inches). Their cards are entered for handicapping purposes

(2) A hole in one was achieved on such a day and the player requested this be accepted.  He had played 11 holes before Rule 3.2 (did not hole out before teeing off next hole) had been violated and putts had been given.  - What would be the ruling?

With regards to the first part of this query would I be correct in saying rules are rules no matter whether the game is  a club organised competition/tournament or in this case an organised social game and if they wish to continue in this manner their cards are not submitted for handicapping?

Many thanks

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12 hours ago, Sheila Shaw said:

They tee off (say No 1), before playing their next shot they cross over to No 2 tee which is in near vicinity, tee off and then cross over again to complete No 1 hole, this is to save them walking back to No 2.

In addition to 3-2, they also played the wrong ball. They were not making a drop or placement. They were not hitting the ball in play. They are not hitting a provisional.

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Wrong Ball

A "wrong ball" is any ball other than the player's:

Ball in play includes a ball substituted for the ball in play, whether or not the substitution is permitted. A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed (see Rule 20-4).

Since they are not playing a second ball under rule 3-3 or rule 20-7c.

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15-3. Wrong Ball

a. Match Play

If a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball, he loses the hole.

If the wrong ball belongs to another player, its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

If the player and opponent exchange balls during the play of a hole, the first to make a stroke at a wrong ball loses the hole; when this cannot be determined, the hole must be played out with the balls exchanged.

Exception: There is no penalty if a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball that is moving in water in a water hazard. Any strokes made at a wrong ball moving in water in a water hazard do not count in the player's score. The player must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or by proceeding under the Rules.

(Placing and Replacing - see Rule 20-3)

b. Stroke Play

If a competitor makes a stroke or strokes at a wrong ball, he incurs a penalty of two strokes.

The competitor must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or by proceeding under the Rules. If he fails to correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the round, fails to declare his intention to correct his mistake before leaving the putting green, he is disqualified.

Strokes made by a competitor with a wrong ball do not count in his score. If the wrong ball belongs to another competitor, its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

Exception: There is no penalty if a competitor makes a stroke at a wrong ball that is moving in water in a water hazard. Any strokes made at a wrong ball moving in water in a water hazard do not count in the competitor's score.

(Placing and Replacing - see Rule 20-3)

 

12 hours ago, Sheila Shaw said:

Their cards are entered for handicapping purposes

This should not happen. It is a failure of the committee to allow this.

12 hours ago, Sheila Shaw said:

A hole in one was achieved on such a day and the player requested this be accepted

I do not think achieving a hole in one is contingent on playing an official round. Unless they took a mulligan on the tee shot. I would accept it as happening.

12 hours ago, Sheila Shaw said:

With regards to the first part of this query would I be correct in saying rules are rules no matter whether the game is  a club organised competition/tournament or in this case an organised social game and if they wish to continue in this manner their cards are not submitted for handicapping?

Only rounds played by USGA rules can be submitted for handicap.

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https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=148&Rule=100

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Rule Misc. Validity of Hole in One

Q.What constitutes the validity of a hole in one?

A.The Rules of Golf do not address the issue of the validity of a hole-in-one. It is up to the Committee to determine whether a hole-in-one is valid. The USGA recommends that a hole-in-one be considered valid: 

  1. If made during a round of at least nine holes, except that a hole-in-one made during a match should be acceptable even if the match ends before the stipulated round is completed. 
  2. If the player is playing one ball; a hole-in-one made in a practice round in which the player is playing two or more balls should not be acceptable. 
  3. If attested by someone acceptable to the Committee. 
  4. If made at a hole with a temporary tee and/or putting green in use, even if the Committee did not specifically define the teeing ground with tee-markers; the length of the hole at the time should be stated on any certificate. 
  5. If made in a "scramble" competition, which is played as follows: A side comprises four players. Each member of a side plays from the teeing ground, the best drive is selected, each member plays a second shot from where the best drive is located, and so on.

That should help too, @Sheila Shaw.

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34 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In addition to 3-2, they also played the wrong ball. They were not making a drop or placement. They were not hitting the ball in play. They are not hitting a provisional.

Since they are not playing a second ball under rule 3-3 or rule 20-7c.

 

This should not happen. It is a failure of the committee to allow this.

I do not think achieving a hole in one is contingent on playing an official round. Unless they took a mulligan on the tee shot. I would accept it as happening.

Only rounds played by USGA rules can be submitted for handicap.

I believe that you can enter rounds not played by the rules for handicap, so long as you play enough holes by the rules (I want to say it's 13). If the teeing off the next hole before completing the hole was the only breach, they would need to record their best estimate of what they would have scored on the hole where the breach occurred. I think that would be the 1st hole, so if their handicap gave them a stroke there they would reflect a bogey. If it didn't, they would reflect a par.

This is to stop sandbaggers. Otherwise you could just be way under your handicap through 17 holes and not play the last hole to the rules and ignore the score. You can't do that.

Edited by Ty_Webb

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18 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

I believe that you can enter rounds not played by the rules for handicap, so long as you play enough holes by the rules (I want to say it's 13). If the teeing off the next hole before completing the hole was the only breach, they would need to record their best estimate of what they would have scored on the hole where the breach occurred. I think that would be the 1st hole, so if their handicap gave them a stroke there they would reflect a bogey. If it didn't, they would reflect a par.

This is to stop sandbaggers. Otherwise you could just be way under your handicap through 17 holes and not play the last hole to the rules and ignore the score. You can't do that.

There is some stipulations to that, but you are correct. Since 3-2 would disqualify the golfer. A lot of matches are not played in competition form, but still under the rules of golf. In a lot of cases disqualification do not matter in casual rounds.

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d. Disqualification

A player who is disqualified from a competition, but has an acceptable score, must record an adjusted gross score for handicap purposes using Section 4-2.

Example 1: Player fails to hole out under Rule 3-2.

Example 2: Player fails to sign scorecard under Rule 6-6b.

Example 3: Player refuses to apply a Rule in stroke play which affects the rights of another player under Rule 3-4.

However, if the breach is determined to provide an advantage for the player (i.e., Rules 1-2, 1-3, subsequent offenses to Rule 14-3, etc.) the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes (See Section 5-1e (vii)).

As long as the golfer played the hole under the rules of golf, they should post it. 

If they are giving putts then I guess they fall under this handicap rule,

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Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3. This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1.)

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

 

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@saevel25 you can't really be DQed from a handicap round. Just the competition itself…

You can just take par+handicap on the first and/or second hole.

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play their own organised social 18 hole (stableford) game

they pay $1 which a percentage is paid out with the remaining accumulated and given to the Club as a donation

They sound like a nice group of duffers

Certainly rules are being bent/broke during the rounds - but it's all between them as a social/casual/fun game.  Meh - nobody's business then

outside the specific rounds? - I'd only be interested in the Handicap posting aspect of it only as those rounds might be used to establish baseline in comps or something that would affect people that are NOT in on their little matches....and it seems posters here have good comments already on how to deal with posting a 'by the rules' round for handicap purposes

If a golfer wants to compete fairly, they have quite a lot of keep track of - it's impressive.  Posting and maintaining a real handicap is quite a responsibility if you want to use it

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There has been a lot of good advice about the actual rules regarding the first situation, as well as the ace question.  As for handicap posting, I believe that most everyone is right.  An offense worthy of disqualification in a proper tournament does NOT eliminate the requirement to post the round in most cases, so it doesn't mean these rounds shouldn't be posted.  I believe these rounds should be posted.  I would also object to applying the various penalties to the score posted for handicap.  Intentionally taking a penalty should not allow a player to increase his score for posting.  In fact, intentionally taking penalties to manipulate a score should expose the player to a very detailed examination by his handicap committee.  I don't think these guys are trying to manipulate their scores, I think they're trying to save a few steps.  In my opinion, on holes 1 and 2 the players should post the LOWER of 1) their actual score (without the penalties discussed above) or B) par plus any handicap strokes.  If a guy starts birdie-birdie even while playing shots out of order, they should post birdie-birdie.  This may not be in exact accordance with the rules, but I believe this is equitable.

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On 11/15/2017 at 6:59 PM, Sheila Shaw said:

(1) We have a group of senior men who play their own organised social 18 hole (stableford) game of golf each week. They tee off (say No 1), before playing their next shot they cross over to No 2 tee which is in near vicinity, tee off and then cross over again to complete No 1 hole, this is to save them walking back to No 2.

In the St. Louis area, one of the country clubs had to sell off some land after World War II to prevent bankruptcy. In the ensuing reshuffle of holes, the club ended up with side-by-side tee boxes for No. 4 par 3 and No. 5 par 4.

In everyday play, it is customary to hit your tee shot on No. 4, then walk to No. 5 and hit your drive. ... Finish out No. 4 ... and then walk sideways to your drive on No. 5 (hopefully in the fairway.)

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Yeah, they're probably not 'doing it right,' but if they all agree to what they're doing and the group is all doing the same thing, what is the issue?

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8 hours ago, dave s said:

Yeah, they're probably not 'doing it right,' but if they all agree to what they're doing and the group is all doing the same thing, what is the issue?

Disqualifications all around!

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10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Disqualifications all around!

Sure, in a formal competition.  For every day casual play?  Play on, and record your scores.

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