New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[Fourputt]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

I could say that if he went a few feet away, he has an argument for being close. With Tiger's knowledge of the game. I highly doubt he didn't know what he was doing. He might have been caught up in the moment, but it was a blatant attempt to get an advantage by re-hitting the shot at a better spot.

Which, under many dropping rules, would have been completely legal - 2 clublengths is a common reference for dropping.  It just happens that the stroke and distance rule he was proceeding under does NOT allow it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he really thought he was making a legal drop.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Which, under many dropping rules, would have been completely legal - 2 clublengths is a common reference for dropping.  It just happens that the stroke and distance rule he was proceeding under does NOT allow it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he really thought he was making a legal drop.

First, hitting into a water hazard is probably the most common drop outside of getting a free drop due to a man made object.

Only one of the three options use the two club length. Also, Tiger never marked off a drop area with tees that is typical when you drop with in two club lengths of the hazard. He walked over to the ball, stepped back two paces and dropped.

I find it very hard to believe that Tiger would confuse the two club length rule when it is pretty clear what the three dropping options are. This wasn't Tiger taking two club lengths from an unplayable lie instead of one club length. This was Tiger taking advantage of the knowledge he had on the shot he just hit and where he could drop it to get a perfect yardage for that shot. I believe he stuck the 2nd attempt. 

[Groucho Valentine]

16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Nope, we are talking about all rules infractions.

Tiger blatantly cheated when he dropped illegally on #15 at Augusta years ago. Here is a quote from Tiger.

The upmost importance must be to protect the golfers who are actively and willingly following the rules of golf. This includes the review of rules infractions by the rules official when brought to their attention no matter what the source.

What is more unfair.

1. A golfer who played by the rules of golf losing to a guy who got away with a rules infraction because the rules official did not apply the rule due to the source.

OR

2. A golfer who is penalized for a rules infraction.

What if Matsuyama didn't get caught on video stamping down on that divot before his ball came to rest? Clearly it was an intentional action to hopefully keep his ball from returning to that divot.

Im not sure either of those cases are blatant cheating. They may have been to you but thats subjective, which is also apart of the problem. Blatant or not, fair or unfair is irrelvant in the greater discussion of allowing someone sitting on a couch watching on TV to snitch in on a rules infraction. No way should that ever been allowed to go on. And thats my main point.  If on site officials actually involved in the tournament missed it, then thats just the way it is. 

[Hardluckster]

I was watching from my living room sofa as Tiger took that drop and immediately told my son that the drop was incorrect.  I am not a rules expert by any means, but I knew he was making a mistake.  I'm really surprised that his caddy didn't inform him of the error at the time.

That said, a player would have to be really stupid to knowingly admit on camera to taking a drop that they knew was incorrectly executed in a major tournament.  After all, there was the possibility of at least an additional 2 stroke penalty for scorecard error - and possibly even DQ.  Had he not admitted on camera to moving back the additional 2 yards in order to get a better distance, your view would have more merit - although I would still be willing to give the benefit of the doubt lacking evidence otherwise.

Over the past several years, I have witnessed numerous instances where tour pros took liberties that I thought were very questionable.  I will even go so far as to say that I highly suspect that I believe their intentions were not honorable - in other words, I think that they were probably cheating.  Tiger's drop at the Masters was not one of those instances.

 I will not, however, accuse someone of cheating without obvious evidence to support that claim.  To me, that is irresponsible.

This is completely off topic of this thread, so I'll make this my last post on this subject.  I realize that neither of us is going to change anyone's mind on this issue, and that's OK.

[NM Golf]

5 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

  If on site officials actually involved in the tournament missed it, then thats just the way it is. 

Until it impacts a Major and the real  hits the fan. 

I really don't see it ever happening, the PGA TOUR did this so they can say the armchair rules officials didn't have a part even though they still will, just anonymously. The TOUR will not allow its eyes to be blackened by something like a player winning a major championship undeservedly because of a rules issue. 

@Groucho Valentine We will just have to agree to disagree, I believe its wrong to be okay with a rules infraction because of lack of knowledge or just plain stupidity. Personally I would be upset if I won a tournament and found out later I shouldn't have due to a rules infraction, apparently you have no such issue as long as no one saw it.

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

If on site officials actually involved in the tournament missed it, then thats just the way it is. 

Ha! No.

[Groucho Valentine]

12 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Until it impacts a Major and the real  hits the fan. 

I really don't see it ever happening, the PGA TOUR did this so they can say the armchair rules officials didn't have a part even though they still will, just anonymously. The TOUR will not allow its eyes to be blackened by something like a player winning a major championship undeservedly because of a rules issue. 

@Groucho Valentine We will just have to agree to disagree, I believe its wrong to be okay with a rules infraction because of lack of knowledge or just plain stupidity. Personally I would be upset if I won a tournament and found out later I shouldn't have due to a rules infraction, apparently you have no such issue as long as no one saw it.

It almost did a couple of years ago. The world can see it if they want to. But they dont get a say in what happens. Thats my point. What the player or tournament officials do is up to them and as a spectator i just have to accept thats what happened. 

[NM Golf]

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

It almost did a couple of years ago. 

When?

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

But they dont get a say in what happens.  

Ah, but I believe they still will.

 

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

What the player or tournament officials do is up to them and as a spectator i just have to accept thats what happened. 

But the golfing public will not accept a non deserving champion, nor will the PGA TOUR at the end of the day.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I could say that if he went a few feet away, he has an argument for being close. With Tiger's knowledge of the game. I highly doubt he didn't know what he was doing. He might have been caught up in the moment, but it was a blatant attempt to get an advantage by re-hitting the shot at a better spot.

as noted many places here - 'advantage' is not a criteria for a rules discussion.  If he (honestly, though mistaken) thought he had 2 club lengths and used it to advantage under what he 'thought' was the rule, then it's not on purpose - the failure is not moral, it's lack of understanding.  You guys seem to think you can read players minds.  I don't know why some people always attribute the worst of intentions when giving the benefit of the doubt still brings us back to the same conclusions.  it just muddies the discussion.

[Groucho Valentine]

6 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

When?

Ah, but I believe they still will.

 

But the golfing public will not accept a non deserving champion, nor will the PGA TOUR at the end of the day.

That whole Dustin Johnson nonsense at the US Open. If a player wins by not noticing his ball move while addressing it, or something like that then so be it. Something id be pissed about is if a player used foot wedges or something along those lines and still won. But outright cheating on that level in a PGA tour event is pretty much impossible. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Groucho Valentine

[NM Golf]

4 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

That whole Dustin Johnson nonsense at the US Open. 

Exactly, but it got fixed, the loose ends were tied up sans the Rules of Golf haters who pop up and chime in every time there's a rules issue. 

What if nothing had been done? Asterisk next to the Champion's name because he broke a rule and it wasn't rectified? Hmmm 

[Ty_Webb]

5 hours ago, NM Golf said:

Until it impacts a Major and the real  hits the fan. 

I really don't see it ever happening, the PGA TOUR did this so they can say the armchair rules officials didn't have a part even though they still will, just anonymously. The TOUR will not allow its eyes to be blackened by something like a player winning a major championship undeservedly because of a rules issue. 

@Groucho Valentine We will just have to agree to disagree, I believe its wrong to be okay with a rules infraction because of lack of knowledge or just plain stupidity. Personally I would be upset if I won a tournament and found out later I shouldn't have due to a rules infraction, apparently you have no such issue as long as no one saw it.

Part of me suspects you are right, but what happens when it crops up the next day? I don't know how they're going to explain that away. This is a big mistake that they are making and it's going to cause a massive stink at some point. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Part of me suspects you are right, but what happens when it crops up the next day? I don't know how they're going to explain that away. This is a big mistake that they are making and it's going to cause a massive stink at some point. 

It’s a lot easier now that you don’t have to add the two extra strokes.

I think you said it earlier that every other sport is moving towards trying to ensure more accuracy in their rulings and golf is the only sport moving the other direction. 

[Ty_Webb]

Just now, iacas said:

It’s a lot easier now that you don’t have to add the two extra strokes.

I agree with that sentiment, although what I was referencing was the suggestion that they will still take call-ins, but will not say that's where it came from. If they are alleging that it came from their rules official watching the telecast, then how are they going to explain away the fact that they didn't add the penalty until the next day?

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

I agree with that sentiment, although what I was referencing was the suggestion that they will still take call-ins, but will not say that's where it came from. If they are alleging that it came from their rules official watching the telecast, then how are they going to explain away the fact that they didn't add the penalty until the next day?

“We are constantly reviewing the broadcast and can’t always see everything in real time.”

[Ty_Webb]

Just now, iacas said:

“We are constantly reviewing the broadcast and can’t always see everything in real time.”

Makes you wonder why on earth they don't just say that now...

[iacas]

A couple of good comments from here:

Has Lexi ever acknowledged that she did a terrible job of marking her ball and deserved the initial penalty? — Tighthead

I'd have more time for her if she just said - it was my fault, I did a bad job. Instead she implies that the rule changes seem to have been applied to validate her behaviour. She's martyr!!

Saint Lexi of Rancho Mirage. — Center Cut

Matt, the guys calling in are not just guys who don't leave their basement. They are rules officials who happen to know who to contact because they have worked with them in the past. It makes a nice, "shocking" headline that "a viewer from his couch can get a guy disqualified", but if rather than the lazy reporting that occurs today, someone actually looked into it and reported what really happened, it would be a lot less of an issue. The media makes it seem like Joe Sixpack in between gulps of his chosen adult beverage, is calling Ed Hochuli and saying "you goofed on the personal foul," when in fact it's Mike Perreira who is calling.

The more important issue though, is what this type of ruling chips away at: the integrity of the game. This basically puts golf in the category of football in that, if no one saw it or called it, there was no foul. While not everyone who plays golf has integrity, until now, at least, it was an atmosphere where if you did cheat and get away with it, you were risking ostracizing. As an earlier comment stated, this makes what Thompson did "ok." That's not the golf I know. — Pat(another one)

I wonder if Ms.Thompson's parents ever disciplined her for anything... she simply doesn't seem to accept that she did anything wrong at the ANA. Never mind the fallout or results, if I recall the first thing she said was ' I didn't mean to', as if that should absolve all sins. And now the USGA and R&A are going to accept that response from everyone.

Because a golf tournament is payed over 4 days (or 2 for us mortals), a signed card at the end of a round states that this is my score, this is the score my competitor agrees with, and should it be found to be incorrect, then I will suffer the consequences. To alter that would call into question why we don't simply record our own scores and forgo peer review altogether.

Bobby Jones is rolling in his grave. — BDF

When people say it's unfair because leaders on are TV more I wonder how we could have made any human progress at all. — Don

 

Still nobody has chosen to reply to that.

---

More good things here:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/12/12/will-golf-be-worse-off-by-rules-taking-onus-off-the-player.html

Geoff quotes Bamberger: http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/12/12/new-rules-changes-deemphasize-players-responsibility-know-rules-and-play-them

Quote

How about the responsibility to know the rules and to play by them? How about doing it correctly the first time? The whole ball-dropping issue with Tiger Woods at 15 in the Saturday round of the 2013 Masters was that he dropped incorrectly. The whole ball-marking issue with Thompson at the ANA Inspiration was that she marked incorrectly. Neither player ever stood up and said, "I take responsibility for this whole mess."

Golf, by tradition, is severe, austere, Calvinistic. Every aspect of it. That's why the spectators are quiet. That's why one player does nothing to interfere with another. That's why Joe Dey, the first PGA Tour commissioner, late of the USGA, carried a bible in one pocket and a rule book in the other when he officiated.

The slug says it all: "New rules changes de-emphasize players responsibility to know rules and play by them." That makes me sad.

Geoff:

Quote

I certainly agree that there is a softening effect worth considering, particularly if the softening actually leads to something worse than mere player ignorance of the rules. If there is an opening created here, as Bamberger contends, does it lead to players bending the rules out of ignorance or entitlement? A case could be made that we already see that with backstopping or the current ball mark fixing of non-ball marks on greens.

Some quotes from there:

Most of the infractions are, I believe, honest mistakes. For those, I can understand why the players resent the 'guy in his basement' calling in. However, I agree with others here, there is no way the callers are unknown viewers...how do you get the number to the PGA TOUR or USGA trailer? The 2013 Masters is a perfect example of who really makes these calls.

The more troublesome aspect of less scrutiny will be the players who push the rules, the ones who take liberties. The ones who will mark a ball slightly to the side to miss an imperfection on the green. The ones who will move a twig that moves the ball ever so slightly. The ones who will claim the ball entered the hazard in the most advantageous area for them. We all play with people like that, they exist in all walks of life. Why are we surprised there are Professional Golfers who do the same thing? And why are the ones who do strive to play by the rules so unwilling to call these people out?

DJ21 nailed it. Whether a player has intent or not shouldn't absolve him/her from suffering the consequences of their actions. Tiger didn't intend to cheat as demonstrated by his 2-yd admission. That he or LaCava were unaware how to proceed under 26-1a, resulting in a 20-7 violation, became secondary once his card was signed. Grounds for DQ.

FWIW I still agree.

The more interesting question to me is who actually 'called in' to report it. I do not believe for a minute that it was an anonymous viewer, I think it was more likely either a peer, a caddy, or a Tour Official that knew what they were looking for.

[Ty_Webb]

Great post @iacas, personally I think Convert is right on the money. I think that’s exactly what happened.