JB Holmes - "Undue Delay"?

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

To the reply about the time:

but its a subjective rule...so it falls on those who enforce the rule. 

This is exactly what I said an hour ago. Just because it wasnt enforced doesnt mean the rule wasnt broken.

[Rulesman]

3 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

because until some hard and fast rule is put in place and enforced (which it won't be), 

The Euro Tour have such a rule, it is enforced and seems to work

[TheZoid]

7 minutes ago, klineka said:

This is exactly what I said an hour ago. Just because it wasnt enforced doesnt mean the rule wasnt broken.

1) The rule is vague so enforcing the rule is up to the opinion of the officials

2) The rules officials called no penalty

3) Therefore the rule wasn't broken

It really breaks down due to the rule being poorly defined...."undue delay" can mean a lot of things......so there is simply no way to say with any certainty..... we are both right and both wrong depending on who is reading it

Edited February 1, 2018 by TheZoid
can't spell :/

[Rulesman]

22 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

because until some hard and fast rule is put in place and enforced (which it won't be), 

The Euro Tour have such a rule, it is enforced and seems to work.

This from the R&A who run the Open Championship.

The R&A’s policy is that the Pace of Play Condition will be strictly applied.
Player Responsibility
 Be ready to play when it is your turn to play
 It is the responsibility of each group to play within the published maximum times allowed and keep up with the group in front
 Even if the reason for your group being out of position is as a result of a lost ball, a lengthy search or a ruling, it is still the responsibility of the group:
o to play to the scheduled time, and
o to get back into position as soon as possible
When Group is Out of Position:
 Referee will ask group to get back into position (unless group is significantly out of position, in which case the referee may start timing immediately)
 If group not back into position within two holes or no effort made after one hole, group will be “timed”
 If you keep up with the group in front, your group will not be timed
Procedure When Group Out of Position and Being Timed:
 The maximum time allocated per shot is 40 seconds. 10 extra seconds are allowed for the first player to play:
 on a par three hole;
 an approach shot to the green; and
 a chip or putt
 Obtaining a yardage and selecting a club are included in the time allocated for the shot
 If a player exceeds the allocated time he will be given a “bad time”
 If you walk quickly to your ball and play your shot within 40 seconds, you cannot get a bad time
Random Timing When Group Not Out of Position
 A group or an individual player may be timed without warning, including when a group is not out of position
 In such cases of “random timing” without warning, a player risks being given a bad time if he exceeds 60 seconds to play a shot, with an extra 10 seconds given (i.e. 70 seconds in total) for a “first to play” shot
Penalties Related to Bad Times:
 1 Bad Time = Warning
 2 Bad Times = One stroke penalty (stroke play); Loss of hole (match play)
 3 Bad Times = Additional two stroke penalty (stroke play); Loss of hole (match play)
 4 Bad Times = Disqualification
Note: The full Pace of Play Condition and explanation of the timing procedures are available from Championship Office.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Rulesman

[MacDutch]

I don’t mind if a players perspective is different. You see amateurs and weekend hackers doing the same as they see on tv. And at the same time allmost everyone is complaining about slow play. So penalize this guy for undue delay. If its not hard coded in the rules, change it like the euro-tour did.

What the PGA needs to do is take action. Stop the pampering, 4 minutes is undue delay period.

[NM Golf]

Maybe this little bit of unflattering press will be enough for the TOUR to actually do something about it? I somewhat doubt it but...  I just don't understand the PGA TOUR. First, they make it very clear they would rather rules infractions go unpunished than allow the input of the viewing audience. Now, they sit idly by and let players take six friggin hours to play 18 holes of golf. What is the TOUR afraid of if they put a slow play policy into affect and actually enforce it? What do they think all these millionaires on TOUR will immediately quit and go do something else? Not likely.  

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, TheZoid said:

1) The rule is vague so enforcing the rule is up to the opinion of the officials

2) The rules officials called no penalty

3) Therefore the rule wasn't broken

It really breaks down due to the rule being poorly defined...."undue delay" can mean a lot of things......so there is simply no way to say with any certainty..... we are both right and both wrong depending on who is reading it

 

The rule is not vague - in that you are wrong right from the start.  The rule is specific in that it instructs the club or committee to set a standard based on their own needs.  It allows them to be very specific in defining what constitutes a good pace and what is unacceptable.  It devolves on the committee to implement and enforce such a policy.  The PGA Tour has been woefully lax in taking any steps to change what has been an obvious problem in their events for years.  Nothing happens because the inmates run the jail on Tour, and that is textbook conflict of interest.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Fourputt

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

So....whats the boundary? 4:29? 4:28?........

I don't know, but it's far closer to the 1:00 range than the 4:30 range. You're at the end of a very, very long tail. On the bell curve, you're way to the right (or left).

As I said, it's subjective, but given that various Tours and agencies and whatnot have established a timeframe of about 0:30 to 0:45, times exceeding that six-fold are well beyond the boundary.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

This makes my point....the PGA tour is largely run by players, when they want it changed...it will change...until then, it won't...because it doesn't need to

Perhaps this will prompt them to change it. And they don't always do what's right, because a lot of them will conjure up a scenario where they will want to take 1:42 to hit a shot. And they can't necessarily see the bigger picture: that this stuff angers and upsets golf fans, it bothers their broadcast partners (CBS is not happy that they didn't get to show their Grammy pre-show stuff, and had to cut away to Golf Channel for continued coverage, and the expenses of running well over no doubt crept into the millions of dollars).

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I agree on the spectators being important.

Full stop. Everything after that is after-the-fact rationalization and justification.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

I've played in tournaments that dragged and ones that went quick....and it was based on the players and conditions....that's a players perspective

You're not the only "player" here.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

...and yes he was....because Noren understands tournament golf...

You have no more insight into why he said what he said than I do. Or others here.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

To the reply about the time:

1) When on the clock 2) There would be strokes given daily if it was enforced, they're not...this becomes an issue when selectively enforcing rules  3) "undue" is subjective based on circumstance

It was undue delay.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

You'll have to cite the fallacy...Maybe an appeal to authority fallacy...but its a subjective rule...so it falls on those who enforce the rule.  Very strike-zonish kinda rule....

No. Rules can be broken without being "caught" or "punished." Have you ever rolled through a stop sign? You broke the law, even if you weren't caught.

It wasn't so much a traditional "fallacy" as it was simply a failure of logic.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Its a never ending debate.....because until some hard and fast rule is put in place and enforced (which it won't be),

Have you considered the 2019 proposed rules, and the efforts the USGA and R&A are taking to more strictly enforce pace of play, and that the time published in the Rules themselves (as proposed) is that same 0:40 that is almost 7x shorter than the 4:30 Holmes took? Never mind that Holmes had an additional minute+ while Palmer was playing his shot?

There are some rules in golf that are subjective.

But the % of people who don't think that 4:30 is "unduly delaying" play is incredibly small.

53 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

everyone will continue to think everyone is slow but them....and..."everyone plays slow but me....man they play slow....those guys on TV play slow"....has just turned into this bleating sheep background noise that I think should just be ignored....

Again, an incredibly small minority.

44 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

1) The rule is vague so enforcing the rule is up to the opinion of the officials
2) The rules officials called no penalty
3) Therefore the rule wasn't broken

The rule was broken.

Again, see the stop sign rule up above. Or @klineka's speeding thing.

And you don't seem to understand what the role or responsibility of the Tour officials is. They're there to assist, not "police."

[NM Golf]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Nothing happens because the inmates run the jail on Tour, and that is textbook conflict of interest.

Exactly! ^^^

[TheZoid]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The rule is not vague - in that you are wrong right from the start.

It is, you're just being stubborn at this point...they use the word may...not shall...

 

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Nothing happens because the inmates run the jail on Tour, and that is textbook conflict of interest.

The inmates are the jail....the players are the tour....I don't watch golf that much...but when I do I love the long scenes of some no playing chop sitting in a cart wearing a blue shirt and tie waiting to tell one of those stupid PGA Tour players to hurry up....said no one ever.

Again....the players decide the pace....if they wanted some strict shot clock rule to be there....it would be there....but its not...

[iacas]

@TheZoid, you're so completely wrong, and you've failed to acknowledge any of the points made against your arguments, so it's no longer worth engaging with you in this.

[TheZoid]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Perhaps this will prompt them to change it. And they don't always do what's right, because a lot of them will conjure up a scenario where they will want to take 1:42 to hit a shot. And they can't necessarily see the bigger picture: that this stuff angers and upsets golf fans, it bothers their broadcast partners (CBS is not happy that they didn't get to show their Grammy pre-show stuff, and had to cut away to Golf Channel for continued coverage, and the expenses of running well over no doubt crept into the millions of dollars).

This seems like the only real measurable reasoning for the discussion.  Also, changes all the bullet points....it goes from an opinionated sounding "hurry up!!!" to questions about when to air the tournament, do they lose viewership/fans/advertising dollars, etc...when players take time outside the time allocated for T.V.  It would seem in this case they would do better to stop using words like slow...and start accepting the pace of play for what it is and always has been and start scheduling your programming accordingly.

 

3 hours ago, iacas said:

It was undue delay.

Repeating it doesn't change the vague wording of the rule that leads to the many different interpretations

3 hours ago, iacas said:

No. Rules can be broken without being "caught" or "punished." Have you ever rolled through a stop sign? You broke the law, even if you weren't caught.

It wasn't so much a traditional "fallacy" as it was simply a failure of logic.

There are laws like disorderly conduct that are somewhat vague....and consequently rarely enforced.  Stop signs, speed limits, etc... are not.  Poor analogy on that one...........My point wasn't being a fallacy nazi...more just repeating the point that the rule is subjective.  I later pointed out that when you try and put it in some kind of logical form, it breaks down due to poor definitions.

 

I think for the discussion to really go anywhere.... they would have to re-write the rule and see how its received.  I don't think it would be received well....but that's just my opinion

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

@TheZoid, you're so completely wrong, and you've failed to acknowledge any of the points made against your arguments, so it's no longer worth engaging with you in this.

Still this.

At this point, your support for players doing whatever they want for as long as they want is noted.

Thank you.

[Fourputt]

14 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

It is, you're just being stubborn at this point...they use the word may...not shall...

 

The inmates are the jail....the players are the tour....I don't watch golf that much...but when I do I love the long scenes of some no playing chop sitting in a cart wearing a blue shirt and tie waiting to tell one of those stupid PGA Tour players to hurry up....said no one ever.

Again....the players decide the pace....if they wanted some strict shot clock rule to be there....it would be there....but its not...

Football has a play clock.  Basketball has a shot clock.  Baseball is in the process of implementing a pitch clock.  Why?  To keep the game moving so that the spectators and TV watchers don't get bored and take their money elsewhere.  Golf needs to take heed. 

I saw a blog recently about a survey which determined that golf was already the most boring professional sport to watch.  The lethargic play for which Holmes and a few other players are legendary is not going to help that image.  If the players think that they can get away with ignoring the fans who are responsible for funding those huge paychecks, then I say "Let them try."  We'll see where the Tour goes when the sponsors find more profitable ways to spend their advertising dollars.

I used to tune in to golf on TV regularly.  Now, I may watch one or two rounds during the majors, otherwise I just don't have a lot of interest.  That's partly due to the slow pace of the game.  I am not a slow player, and I don't have a lot of patience for those who are.  In my opinion, the Tour has always been too slow.  With all of the push from most directions for playing promptly and keeping a good pace, the Tour seems to be getting worse, or at least it's not getting any better.  They are totally ignoring reality and it's going to jump up and bite them one of these days.

[Phil McGleno]

@TheZoid-Just curious-How long would you have let JB stand there doing nothing before you penalized him?

Where is your subjective line drawn?

[colin007]

On 1/30/2018 at 11:51 AM, iacas said:

One of his fellow competitors could have penalized him, or at least attempted to, pending the discussion that would no doubt ensue in the scoring tent twelve minutes later.

I had literally no idea this was allowed. Huh...

9 hours ago, Pete said:

You can't just wait for the wind to stop blowing.

This is against the rules right? When it's your turn, it's your turn in spite of what the wind is doing right?

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I had literally no idea this was allowed. Huh...

What do you mean? If I see a player do something that's a penalty, I am obligated to call him on it.

[colin007]

Just now, iacas said:

What do you mean? If I see a player do something that's a penalty, I am obligated to call him on it.

Sorry, i should have clarified, I meant in reference to this specific slow play penalty.