2018 Valspar Golf Championship in Tampa, FL

[Dr. Manhattan]

17 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Before that happened, he had never lost a major with the lead going into the final round. I remember asking people what would be the first to get broken. Would he win from behind, would he lose from in front or would neither happen. A few people said neither (this was around 2008 when he was out with his leg and knee issues), more said he would lose from in front than that he would win from behind. I was sure he would win from behind. I was wrong. Has happened before and likely will again. He went from invincible to vincible in one round of golf. Has to weigh on him. I do believe that the reason he won the 14 times before that when he had the lead is that he was just better than everyone else. 

Incidentally, I could buy that he hated losing that PGA so much that he spent some years subconsciously not exposing himself to that feeling again (by not getting in that position again). In 2013, he won 5 times including the Players and I think at least one WGC. He didn't really show up in any of the majors though. Best player of his generation, playing better than anyone else at the time and he didn't really show up in the majors. Interesting to ponder why. Especially as a player who had done so so much in his career. That said, I think he was so good for a spell (a long spell) that we expected so much of him, but it's RFH to win major championships. We were spoiled. I hope we get spoiled again!

 

Didn't show up at U.S. Open or PGA, but he definitely showed up at The Masters and The Open. Tiger was right where he wanted to be on Sunday at Muirfield and choked it away with poor ballstriking and some very poor short game. Mickelson played incredible from behind to win it. Woods finished T6 despite his problems with the ballstriking and short game.

I don't know if you remember this, but Tiger was right there at the lead on Friday afternoon when his ball hit the flag stick on the 15th hole at Augusta. Goes in the water. Makes a great bogey from there, then we have the rules controversy about the improper drop. He ends up with an additional 2 shot penalty. So he goes from a likely tap-in birdie to triple bogey. Lost the tournament by 4 shots in the end and finished tied for 4th. Should have listened to Ben Hogan's advice. Never fire at the flagstick. Go 2 yards left or right of it.

[nevets88]

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

I've said this many times on this site, I think that was a (possibly "the") pivotal moment in Tiger's career.

I don't think that was much of anything. He wasn't hitting the ball well. That was right toward the end of his time with Hank. Actually, he went at that one alone, with Sean Foley kinda on the fringe, IIRC.

2 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

I don't put much stock into things like that, really. Tiger had his scandal and injuries soon followed after this. 

That too.

2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Before that happened, he had never lost a major with the lead going into the final round. I remember asking people what would be the first to get broken. Would he win from behind, would he lose from in front or would neither happen. A few people said neither (this was around 2008 when he was out with his leg and knee issues), more said he would lose from in front than that he would win from behind. I was sure he would win from behind. I was wrong. Has happened before and likely will again. He went from invincible to vincible in one round of golf. Has to weigh on him. I do believe that the reason he won the 14 times before that when he had the lead is that he was just better than everyone else. 

He came from behind several times to win majors - they just weren't at a number of holes evenly divisible by 18. He was trailing against Bob May. He was trailing against Rocco Mediate in rounds four and the playoff. He was trailing other people in other majors, too.

So, I don't entirely give a lot of weight to the idea that he never won when trailing. He won when trailing several times.

I get what people are saying, but they're only talking about after 54 holes. So if he's trailing after 56 holes, or 62 holes, that's less impressive to come back and win, or something?

[Dr. Manhattan]

He hit the ball very well against Yang. Putting killed him on the weekend. Missed a 5 footer for birdie at the 18th hole on Saturday and then it continued Sunday. 

Same thing at Bethpage in 2009 as well. I think those two tournaments convinced him to switch to the Nike putter. Didn’t make a positive difference. 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

He hit the ball very well against Yang.

No he didn't. He was routinely farther away from the hole than Yang for birdie.

I remember the first five holes he, like Sunday at Valspar, had long putts for birdie while Yang was inside of him. He was tentative and afraid to hit the driver.

[Dr. Manhattan]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

No he didn't. He was routinely farther away from the hole than Yang for birdie.

I remember the first five holes he, like Sunday at Valspar, had long putts for birdie while Yang was inside of him. He was tentative and afraid to hit the driver.

 

He was also leading by 2 shots. Strategy was pretty understandable. 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

He was also leading by 2 shots. Strategy was pretty understandable. 

In hindsight, it wasn't, though.

But again, he effectively played the event alone (without Hank), because he was unhappy with his ballstriking. That poor ballstriking continued throughout the last round. He held together the first four rounds, and didn't in the final round.

Tiger shot three over. It wasn't all or even most from his putting.

[Ty_Webb]

3 hours ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

Didn't show up at U.S. Open or PGA, but he definitely showed up at The Masters and The Open. Tiger was right where he wanted to be on Sunday at Muirfield and choked it away with poor ballstriking and some very poor short game. Mickelson played incredible from behind to win it. Woods finished T6 despite his problems with the ballstriking and short game.

I don't know if you remember this, but Tiger was right there at the lead on Friday afternoon when his ball hit the flag stick on the 15th hole at Augusta. Goes in the water. Makes a great bogey from there, then we have the rules controversy about the improper drop. He ends up with an additional 2 shot penalty. So he goes from a likely tap-in birdie to triple bogey. Lost the tournament by 4 shots in the end and finished tied for 4th. Should have listened to Ben Hogan's advice. Never fire at the flagstick. Go 2 yards left or right of it.

Impossible to say what would have happened over the weekend if Tiger didn’t do all that. It’s also possible (very unlikely granted) that his fouling up of the drop was subconsciously done to avoid being at or near the lead. I know I’m reaching a lot here. I’m not saying it’s what happened about any of it. I’m just saying it’s possible. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

He came from behind several times to win majors - they just weren't at a number of holes evenly divisible by 18. He was trailing against Bob May. He was trailing against Rocco Mediate in rounds four and the playoff. He was trailing other people in other majors, too.

So, I don't entirely give a lot of weight to the idea that he never won when trailing. He won when trailing several times.

I get what people are saying, but they're only talking about after 54 holes. So if he's trailing after 56 holes, or 62 holes, that's less impressive to come back and win, or something?

I hear you and you make a valid point. I think it has more to do with the length of time you spend with or without the lead. Sleeping on the lead is difficult (I think for most normal human beings). For others going into a final round knowing about Tiger’s front running prowess made it harder. I think that helped him somewhat. I think the people close to him knew he was better than them so they had to go all out. I also think he benefited a little bit from being in the final group. For his own mental state, I think it gave him comfort to sleep with the lead. Lording it over everyone else. If he didn’t he wasn’t as composed and having moments where those things changed during final rounds, where he fell behind or got in front (he led the 2002 PGA albeit temporarily) didn’t last long enough to change that feeling. I know this is fairly wishy washy, but I think there is more than an arbitrary difference between a 54 hole lead and a 56 hole lead. 

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

In hindsight, it wasn't, though.

Hindsight always 20:20. Yang did some fairly special things in that round. He chipped in I think and then that hybrid on 18. He was no slouch. 75+% of the time I think tiger’s game plan would have got it done. It didn’t that day and to be fair 75% is hardly a strike rate you’d expect from tiger with a 3 shot lead

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Hindsight always 20:20. Yang did some fairly special things in that round. He chipped in I think and then that hybrid on 18. He was no slouch. 75+% of the time I think tiger’s game plan would have got it done. It didn’t that day and to be fair 75% is hardly a strike rate you’d expect from tiger with a 3 shot lead

I don't think a round of +3 gets it done most of the time. Even par might have (Tiger started the round at -8, Yang finished at -8).

[Ty_Webb]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't think a round of +3 gets it done most of the time. Even par might have (Tiger started the round at -8, Yang finished at -8).

For sure, but his tactics didn’t dictate the +3. He had to also play fairly poorly 

[MuniGrit]

3 hours ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

He hit the ball very well against Yang. Putting killed him on the weekend. Missed a 5 footer for birdie at the 18th hole on Saturday and then it continued Sunday. 

Same thing at Bethpage in 2009 as well. I think those two tournaments convinced him to switch to the Nike putter. Didn’t make a positive difference. 

Yang got the big dink golfer award for that win. He played great and didn't back down. Tiger is missing an 86 Masters win which he has time to recreate.

[nevets88]

More of the iron vs wood on 18 on my social media feeds.

 

[sheepdog]

Lots of thoughts about Tiger being exhausted. He'll have to be in shape at Augusta with those hills, especially the walk up 18.

[Zeph]

If anything, he looked disappointed with some shots. He's 42 years old, has played golf all his life, works out, has been playing full rounds half a year? Physically, I don't think he's got any issues. Coming back to the tour, being in contention, walking with a horde of spectators, wanting to perform his best. I can see that being something to adjust back into, but I don't think it's a problem.

[phillyk]

Tiger said in his interview today that on 18, he hit 2 iron because the hole doesn't fit his eye.  He said that in the first 2 rounds, he hit 3 wood and they both went right and into the gallery.

[GrandStranded]

In the last month or so all the little Tigers of the golf world have gotten me from rooting hard for a great second chapter to Tiger's career, to now, where I think I'd rather see his minions hearts broken then see him win. That's sad to say, because it would be such a great story. But the little Tigers just continuously suck the air out of a room. This weeks field is incredibly weak, though, and Tiger (who has done and said nothing but the right things since coming back) should be a prime contender. I'm hoping though, someone like "big hat, no cattle" Rickie Fowler can pull off a rare clutch performance, and steal one here. This would give me another week to enjoy watching and reading the Little Tigers squirm and lament the bad luck and misfortune which caused a rightful victory to elude their Chosen One. Not to mention their reaction to a failed Masters bid, or even better, a missed cut there. That would be epic, along the lines of a natural disaster! LOL 

[iacas]

I don’t believe you have ever rooted for Tiger.

Your put-downs and namecalling belie a truth, I think.

Nobody cited “bad luck and misfortune” that I can recall.

Tiger didn’t play well enough to win. But a T2 is still well ahead of schedule. He’s been playing competitive golf again for about two months.

[GrandStranded]

I think you're thinking about me way too much.