Why Don’t More Players (Pro & Am) Use a 2-Iron Off the Tee?

[Ratherbegolfing83]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

Keeping the ball in play is important, but finding the fairway is not nearly as important as you make it seem, and driving distance is way more important than finding the fairway.

Give me the choice between 125 left to the green in the rough vs 175 from the middle of the fairway, I'm choosing the 125 shot every single time, and you should too. Your proximity to the hole on those approach shots will be significantly closer to the flag from 125 than they will be from 175.

Here is a graph I made a month or two ago comparing the average driving distance to the current world golf ranking. 9/10 golfers in the top 10 at the time drove the ball over 300 yards on average. As the average driving distance goes down, they get worse in the world golf rankings.

You might feel that way, but the numbers and statistics will disagree with you. Here is another chart, this one is from SuperSpeed Golf's instagram page and it's comparing the strokes gained off the tee for the top 10 driving distance guys vs the top 10 driving accuracy guys. Notice how only ONE person in the top 10 of driving distance is losing strokes off the tee to the field and have an average strokes gained positio, compared to the accurate drivers where 4 guys are losing strokes to the field

 

In my opinion, I feel like you are using the 2 iron as an excuse for you not to improve your driving accuracy. If you cant keep the ball in play, take lessons and figure out why that is the case. 

You obviously hit the two iron pretty far right now, so logic would mean that your driver probably goes further than that. You are hurting your scores in the long term by not learning how to keep driver in play. Sure in the short term your scores might drop if you arent hitting it out of bounds as often, but in the long term I would bet a lot of money that your scores would be lower overall if you learned how to hit your driver properly and in play compared to using your 2 iron.

I suggest getting a copy of the book "Lowest Score Wins" which was authored by the owner of this site. It explains what I just described in greater detail. 

Thank you for the info and I agree about me needing to work on my skill with the driver. I will continue to work on it and I do hope to get it back in the bag at some point this year and I always take it to a more wide open course. But I play at a very narrow heavily wooded course mostly so unless I can really dial in that driver it’s costing me strokes. It’s most certainly a me problem for sure. 

[ncates00]

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

Because distance is an advantage and the farther you can hit it the better chance you have of making a lower score on a hole (generally).

 

3 hours ago, klineka said:

Keeping the ball in play is important, but finding the fairway is not nearly as important as you make it seem, and driving distance is way more important than finding the fairway.

Give me the choice between 125 left to the green in the rough vs 175 from the middle of the fairway, I'm choosing the 125 shot every single time, and you should too. Your proximity to the hole on those approach shots will be significantly closer to the flag from 125 than they will be from 175.

Here is a graph I made a month or two ago comparing the average driving distance to the current world golf ranking. 9/10 golfers in the top 10 at the time drove the ball over 300 yards on average. As the average driving distance goes down, they get worse in the world golf rankings.

You might feel that way, but the numbers and statistics will disagree with you. Here is another chart, this one is from SuperSpeed Golf's instagram page and it's comparing the strokes gained off the tee for the top 10 driving distance guys vs the top 10 driving accuracy guys. Notice how only ONE person in the top 10 of driving distance is losing strokes off the tee to the field and have an average strokes gained positio, compared to the accurate drivers where 4 guys are losing strokes to the field

 

In my opinion, I feel like you are using the 2 iron as an excuse for you not to improve your driving accuracy. If you cant keep the ball in play, take lessons and figure out why that is the case. 

You obviously hit the two iron pretty far right now, so logic would mean that your driver probably goes further than that. You are hurting your scores in the long term by not learning how to keep driver in play. Sure in the short term your scores might drop if you arent hitting it out of bounds as often, but in the long term I would bet a lot of money that your scores would be lower overall if you learned how to hit your driver properly and in play compared to using your 2 iron.

I suggest getting a copy of the book "Lowest Score Wins" which was authored by the owner of this site. It explains what I just described in greater detail. 

Pretty much covers it.  Learn to hit driver well and you're closer to the hole with greater chances to score.  I only hit "something less than driver" on par 4's and par 5's when driver is too much club due to hazards or water that I can't carry or the expected roll out with a driver will cause the ball to enter said trouble.  I don't opt out of driver simply because a hole is too "tight" or has OB/hazards that are only in play for the most crooked shot.  I'll hit anything crooked if my swing is out of sorts.  

[DeadMan]

18 minutes ago, Ratherbegolfing83 said:

You’re correct but I was speaking more to dispersion left or right more than distance with miss hits. Had I swung any club with 2 bad swings like that I would have produced the same or worse results. I can consistently carry my driver 282 on 8 out of 10 shots but if it’s 30 yards right of my target I’m either OB or under some trees or worse in the water. I can’t seem to keep the club face closed enough at impact and since my swing has a natural left path my driver just wants to go right. With my irons I don’t have as much trouble with face position so I am able to drive it much straighter. I think hybrids are great but they just aren’t for me. I guess I’m in the minority on this one. lol I just want to keep it in play and so far it’s resulted in better scores for me. 

I would strongly bet that a hybrid or wood has better horizontal dispersion than a 2 iron. I'm sure your scores have gone down with this approach, but that's short term. Long term, if you can hit your driver 280, you'll get much stronger returns by getting it to stay in play than laying back with a 2 iron. But again, if you're happy with it, then by all means, keep using it. But yes, there are probably better options for you than a 2 iron out there.

Also, check out this thread for tips onhitting the driver:

 

[HJJ003]

If it works for you then hit it. However, most amateurs will strike the ball much better with a larger face driver than with a 2 iron. I played for awhile with my 3 Iron and 3 Hybrids off the tee for accuracy. My FIR went way up...but my scores didn’t go way down. 

[Groucho Valentine]

2-hybrid, sure.

2-iron, hell no..

[onthehunt526]

6 hours ago, Ratherbegolfing83 said:

You mean before I broke it in half? Haha jk I own a Cobra F7 cut down to 44.5 and a C-9 swing weight. I had it cut at the butt end so it wouldn’t adjust stiffness too much. At the range I can control it ok and my issue is definitely swing plain and to some extent it’s a mental hurdle for me personally. I’ve played with lead tape on the head to bring it back up but I’m  having an issue with left to right spin. I have to really almost over fire my lower half to square up and hit it straight which is painful to do often. So the two iron just seems to work better for me. Smaller misses and tighter dispersion helps me keep it in play. On long Par 5’s I am definitely not getting there in two but still give myself a chance at birdie.

I'm 6'5". I play a 44" driver. Looking at your numbers in your original post, your spin is high for a driver and your angle of attack needs to be in the positive. Not the negative.

Hitting an iron is all well and good but it's not going to fix your driver issues. It seems like you need a lesson or two to get some drills so you come more from the inside and with a positive angle of attack.

[onthehunt526]

5 hours ago, ncates00 said:

 

Pretty much covers it.  Learn to hit driver well and you're closer to the hole with greater chances to score.  I only hit "something less than driver" on par 4's and par 5's when driver is too much club due to hazards or water that I can't carry or the expected roll out with a driver will cause the ball to enter said trouble.  I don't opt out of driver simply because a hole is too "tight" or has OB/hazards that are only in play for the most crooked shot.  I'll hit anything crooked if my swing is out of sorts.  

You only should "throttle back" if the shot zone with your driver is too dark to hit it. Meaning there is too much danger in the egg for you to risk hitting it, things like thick trees, OB, water, knee high grass, etc. The shot zone with your driver will be the widest, because it's longest club in the bag. Just because the fairway is only 25 yards wide and your shot zone is 40 yards wide, doesn't mean you shouldn't hit driver.

Edited March 23, 2018 by onthehunt526

[WUTiger]

On 3/22/2018 at 8:05 PM, Ratherbegolfing83 said:

I’m a long hitter and don’t get me wrong it’s great hitting a 300 yard drive but if it’s in the rough or playing from the wrong angle into the green is it really an advantage being so long? So what did I do? Against everyone’s advice I got fitted for a 2 iron. I went to my local shop and consulted with a pro. He suggested a new GI style driving iron. The Mizuno MP 18 MMC fli hi. It was love at first sight.

If you get 300 yd. drives on occasion, that means you have high clubhead speed. One thing that helps in being able to hit long irons/driving irons is high clubhead speed.

If I play my SLDR irons, the 4i (21*) is an excellent driving iron. But, it's iffy off the fairway for me. I get much better overall use out of a 4H or a 7W. (These two I use on tight holes, and I can use from fairway or rough.)

On the tee I like my current driver. I'm quite accurate with it, and only hit shorter tee clubs if I'm in danger of going through the landing area.

BTW, RBG, congrats on your 2i hit of 267 yds. That's the driver long shot I manage maybe once a round. We might make good scramble partners...

[onthehunt526]

9 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

If you get 300 yd. drives on occasion, that means you have high clubhead speed. One thing that helps in being able to hit long irons/driving irons is high clubhead speed.

If I play my SLDR irons, the 4i (21*) is an excellent driving iron. But, it's iffy off the fairway for me. I get much better overall use out of a 4H or a 7W. (These two I use on tight holes, and I can use from fairway or rough.)

On the tee I like my current driver. I'm quite accurate with it, and only hit shorter tee clubs if I'm in danger of going through the landing area.

BTW, RBG, congrats on your 2i hit of 267 yds. That's the driver long shot I manage maybe once a round. We might make good scramble partners...

I don't doubt he occasionally gets a 300 yd. drives. he has the ball speed and clubhead speed to get it. From the numbers he showed, however, it seems he needs to work on his AoA and little bit. Probably come more from the inside. 267 yard 2-iron? Wow. I'd need driver for that (at least 4-wood). I haven't carried a 2-iron in about 5 years now. I just don't need it. I still carry a 3-iron from time to time, but mostly 20° hybrid to 4-iron, now that I play blades. I can probably get around the front nine of my home course without hitting driver but once. Why? Because I'm a lousy wedge player. That definitely needs some work. However I've learned to adjust, by hitting choke down gap wedges and pitching wedges and three-quarter shots and what not.

[ncates00]

On 3/23/2018 at 6:29 PM, onthehunt526 said:

You only should "throttle back" if the shot zone with your driver is too dark to hit it. Meaning there is too much danger in the egg for you to risk hitting it, things like thick trees, OB, water, knee high grass, etc. The shot zone with your driver will be the widest, because it's longest club in the bag. Just because the fairway is only 25 yards wide and your shot zone is 40 yards wide, doesn't mean you shouldn't hit driver.

I agree.  I tried to say as much, but poorly.  Basically put, in my opinion, you should hit driver unless it will get you into trouble due to being TOO LONG.  I.e. it will roll into water or something and you cannot carry it.  Don't hit an iron or something off the tee just because you're afraid of your dispersion with the driver- learn to hit driver and get closer to the hole.

[HJJ003]

20 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I agree.  I tried to say as much, but poorly.  Basically put, in my opinion, you should hit driver unless it will get you into trouble due to being TOO LONG.  I.e. it will roll into water or something and you cannot carry it.  Don't hit an iron or something off the tee just because you're afraid of your dispersion with the driver- learn to hit driver and get closer to the hole.

You have to take dispersion into account. If your driver brings OB or penalty hazards into play then you may need to step down to a fairway metal or Long Iron depending on your dispersion and the danger that is lurking. On average you gotta go with the lightest color egg...that includes dispersion not just a good drive running out into trouble. 

[ncates00]

8 minutes ago, HJJ003 said:

You have to take dispersion into account. If your driver brings OB or penalty hazards into play then you may need to step down to a fairway metal or Long Iron depending on your dispersion and the danger that is lurking. On average you gotta go with the lightest color egg...that includes dispersion not just a good drive running out into trouble. 

Or just learn to hit driver.  I'd rather be closer to the hole.  My driver is one of my good clubs.  After testing on my GC2, I've found that I hit it about as straight as anything else, or at least I know my dispersion bias just as well.  Driver shouldn't bring OB or hazards into play unless it is just too long.  If you're worried about left and right dispersion, simply changing club just tries to cover up a flaw in your game that needs rectified to play your very best.  See Tiger or Mark Crossfield vs. Coach Lockey.  Mark hits driver very straight whereas Lockey could be so much closer to the hole if he could hit his driver.

[DaveP043]

32 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I agree.  I tried to say as much, but poorly.  Basically put, in my opinion, you should hit driver unless it will get you into trouble due to being TOO LONG.  I.e. it will roll into water or something and you cannot carry it.  Don't hit an iron or something off the tee just because you're afraid of your dispersion with the driver- learn to hit driver and get closer to the hole.

Yes to the last part, learn to hit your driver in play.  But right now, today, I have to play the right shot considering my skill level today.  Its quite possible that today I really SHOULD be afraid of my dispersion with the driver, and select a different club sometimes.  I can't instantly learn to hit driver better, that takes time.

[HJJ003]

52 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Or just learn to hit driver.  I'd rather be closer to the hole.  My driver is one of my good clubs.  After testing on my GC2, I've found that I hit it about as straight as anything else, or at least I know my dispersion bias just as well.  Driver shouldn't bring OB or hazards into play unless it is just too long.  If you're worried about left and right dispersion, simply changing club just tries to cover up a flaw in your game that needs rectified to play your very best.  See Tiger or Mark Crossfield vs. Coach Lockey.  Mark hits driver very straight whereas Lockey could be so much closer to the hole if he could hit his driver.

Nope. The best golfers in the world have 60-70 yard driver dispersions. Dispersion needs to be taken into account to best manage your way around the course. I recommend reading Lowest Score Wins or studying Scott Fawcetts research on driving dispersion. It’s really enlightening stuff. 

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Nope. The best golfers in the world have 60-70 yard driver dispersions. Dispersion needs to be taken into account to best manage your way around the course. I recommend reading Lowest Score Wins or studying Scott Fawcetts research on driving dispersion. It’s really enlightening stuff. 

On the other hand, go check out Richie Hunt's (3jack) research on the matter.  He is a boss with the stats and works with Tour players.  For the tour pros it seems you're right.  Being closer to the hole is paramount, but the ball should be played from the fairway to control the spin and increase the proximity to the hole.  Thus, better chances at par and birdie.  For us ams, just being closer to the hole, given no big trouble like trees and the like, a bit of rough isn't going to hurt us as much as the tour player.  Pulling driver just for your fear of dispersion isn't a strong case.  If you're struggling with driver, you could have issues with any club.  Granted, those issues are compounded with driver.  I'd much rather be in the right rough 135 away than 175 away in the fairway. 

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Yes to the last part, learn to hit your driver in play.  But right now, today, I have to play the right shot considering my skill level today.  Its quite possible that today I really SHOULD be afraid of my dispersion with the driver, and select a different club sometimes.  I can't instantly learn to hit driver better, that takes time.

Now this I can agree with.  You do have to play what you have, so it might be a good idea just for that day if, for example, you need to post a score.  If you're not seeing the shot, then do what you must on that day, but don't make it a philosophy of leaving the big stick in the bag due to dispersion.

[inthecup]

On 3/23/2018 at 9:09 AM, klineka said:

Keeping the ball in play is important, but finding the fairway is not nearly as important as you make it seem, and driving distance is way more important than finding the fairway.

Give me the choice between 125 left to the green in the rough vs 175 from the middle of the fairway, I'm choosing the 125 shot every single time, and you should too. Your proximity to the hole on those approach shots will be significantly closer to the flag from 125 than they will be from 175.

Here is a graph I made a month or two ago comparing the average driving distance to the current world golf ranking. 9/10 golfers in the top 10 at the time drove the ball over 300 yards on average. As the average driving distance goes down, they get worse in the world golf rankings.

You might feel that way, but the numbers and statistics will disagree with you. Here is another chart, this one is from SuperSpeed Golf's instagram page and it's comparing the strokes gained off the tee for the top 10 driving distance guys vs the top 10 driving accuracy guys. Notice how only ONE person in the top 10 of driving distance is losing strokes off the tee to the field and have an average strokes gained positio, compared to the accurate drivers where 4 guys are losing strokes to the field

 

In my opinion, I feel like you are using the 2 iron as an excuse for you not to improve your driving accuracy. If you cant keep the ball in play, take lessons and figure out why that is the case. 

You obviously hit the two iron pretty far right now, so logic would mean that your driver probably goes further than that. You are hurting your scores in the long term by not learning how to keep driver in play. Sure in the short term your scores might drop if you arent hitting it out of bounds as often, but in the long term I would bet a lot of money that your scores would be lower overall if you learned how to hit your driver properly and in play compared to using your 2 iron.

I suggest getting a copy of the book "Lowest Score Wins" which was authored by the owner of this site. It explains what I just described in greater detail. 

You make an assumption that all off line shots land in the rough.  Not on the courses I play.  There are traps, water, heather, woods and a little rough.  Here in an overhead of my home course.

The dark brown is all heather.  The darker green is the rough.  There is not much rough and what is there is juicy.  If you are in the heather there are times during the year where PW is the only club you should hit.  There are times when you are not going to find the ball.  All those traps are in the right places.

 

I have been practicing my 2 hybrid all winter and I am planning on pulling it more often.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, inthecup said:

You make an assumption that all off line shots land in the rough.  Not on the courses I play.  There are traps, water, heather, woods and a little rough.  Here in an overhead of my home course.

The dark brown is all heather.  The darker green is the rough.  There is not much rough and what is there is juicy.  If you are in the heather there are times during the year where PW is the only club you should hit.  There are times when you are not going to find the ball.  All those traps are in the right places.

 

I have been practicing my 2 hybrid all winter and I am planning on pulling it more often.

 

If the heather/rough at times is so thick that there is a reasonable chance it will result in a lost ball, then that should considered the "O.B." with regards to your shot planning.

Notice the very first thing I said was that keeping the ball in play is important. If the hitting into the heather means your ball is no longer in play, then you should hit clubs that minimize the chance of your ball going into the heather, or "O.B."

It's fine to hit your two hybrid, but I would also continue to work on your driving accuracy so you can get it to a point that keeps it "in play". Clearly on that course "in play" requires more accuracy with the driver than other courses. 

On some of those holes, especially the one towards the bottom that is dead straight and looks like a par 5, I see no reason not to hit driver there, unless that water on the right is reachable off the tee.

It's highly individual, my hybrid is a weakness for me. I feel more confident and have a one way miss with my driver, where my hybrid is often a 2 way miss and not a lot of confidence. If your hybrid is your strength and is the club you can hit the furthest while minimizing the chance to lose a ball or go O.B, then thats the club you should hit. Just dont forget to work on the driver during practice 

[HJJ003]

5 hours ago, ncates00 said:

n the other hand, go check out Richie Hunt's (3jack) research on the matter.  He is a boss with the stats and works with Tour players.  For the tour pros it seems you're right.  Being closer to the hole is paramount, but the ball should be played from the fairway to control the spin and increase the proximity to the hole.  Thus, better chances at par and birdie.  For us ams, just being closer to the hole, given no big trouble like trees and the like, a bit of rough isn't going to hurt us as much as the tour player.  Pulling driver just for your fear of dispersion isn't a strong case.  If you're struggling with driver, you could have issues with any club.  Granted, those issues are compounded with driver.  I'd much rather be in the right rough 135 away than 175 away in the fairway. 

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think you are missing the point. Dispersion on the driver matters not because of light rough (I never made that argument by the way), however, when hazards (OB, FWY bunkers, Dense Trees, or water) is in play then you absolutely must understand your lateral shot dispersion so you can know the risk that each club brings off the tee. If light to medium rough/light trees is the only thing in play by all means let the big dog rip. However, to know what is a green light and the probabilities for each club you need to know dispersion.