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colin007

John Senden - Driver Snaps, Stroke Counts

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Oh man is this unlucky....his driver shaft snaps in the backswing causing him to whiff...they count it as a stroke...

 

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Yeah saw it last night. Without slomo I would have thought he broke it at impact (ground). Unfortunate outliar outcome (stroke penalty) of a rule that addresses majority occurrences properly. 

But yeah if I were to vote if shaft break on backswing type freak occurrences ( if they can be verified via slomo and that it indeed occurred before impact) should be forgiven, I would vote yes. If it's not fair to someone without benefit of a slomo then so be it.

Edited by GolfLug

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28 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Oh man is this unlucky....his driver shaft snaps in the backswing causing him to whiff...they count it as a stroke...

 

There are four Decisions that discuss a club breaking during the swing.  From what I can tell, the important facts here seem to be

he continued his swing, he didn't try to pull up

the break appears to occur just at transition, essentially very early in the forward swing

If a club breaks during the downswing, and the player completes the swing, he is deemed to have made a stroke.  As you say, its really bad luck.

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23 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Wow, that's a bad break.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll see myself out...

It's enough to make one snap.

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1 hour ago, colin007 said:

Oh man is this unlucky....his driver shaft snaps in the backswing causing him to whiff...they count it as a stroke...

It snapped on the downswing, I think.

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

Yeah saw it last night. Without slomo I would have thought he broke it at impact (ground). Unfortunate outliar outcome (stroke penalty) of a rule that addresses majority occurrences properly.

Not a penalty stroke. Just a "stroke."

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

But yeah if I were to vote if shaft break on backswing type freak occurrences ( if they can be verified via slomo and that it indeed occurred before impact) should be forgiven, I would vote yes. If it's not fair to someone without benefit of a slomo then so be it.

No thank you. Rule is good as it stands. No rule at all should require the use of slow-mo or HD. Golf has gone away from enforcing rules that use things other than your normal eyesight.

I generally strongly dislike how often people over-react to these type of one-off events by suggesting rules changes. It ignores the thousands of more likely events and overlooks the problems with enforcement, etc. just based on ONE such occurrence.

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Good thing using a "non conforming" club to hit the ball was not an issue. 

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3 hours ago, colin007 said:

Oh man is this unlucky....his driver shaft snaps in the backswing causing him to whiff...they count it as a stroke...

 

When you buy those cheap knock off clubs.....you get what you pay for.:-P

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

No rule at all should require the use of slow-mo or HD. Golf has gone away from enforcing rules that use things other than your normal eyesight.

 Fair enough. IIRC you were not in favor of that yourself some time ago when that happened (via Lexi rule). I am entitled to my opinion too. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

It ignores the thousands of more likely events and overlooks the problems with enforcement, etc. just based on ONE such occurrence.

Did not ignore at all. I said if slo-mo was available. Not the whole thing. I deal with the practicality and difficulty rules enforcement all day everyday (my job). See below part of my post.  

3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

a rule that addresses majority occurrences properly.

 

^^^

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

If a club breaks during the downswing, and the player completes the swing, he is deemed to have made a stroke.  As you say, its really bad luck.

It's clear to me that he seems to be pulling up and successfully avoided striking the ball (chicken wing finish seems consistent with someone whose intention is to NOT strike). Rule 14/1.5 would apply. Just my opinion from what I saw since the RO did not agree. Heck his competitor who was right there wasn't exactly thrilled either.  

Ok, I know this is not a rules thread so I won't post further.

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7 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

It's clear to me that he seems to be pulling up and successfully avoided striking the ball (chicken wing finish seems consistent with someone whose intention is to NOT strike). Rule 14/1.5 would apply. Just my opinion from what I saw since the RO did not agree. Heck his competitor who was right there wasn't exactly thrilled either.  

In watching, even in slow-motion, I'm not so certain that he decided to alter his swing in order to miss the ball.  While I wouldn't say that he's being less that truthful, I just don't see anything in his swing until after the clubhead struck the ground.  As as you mentioned, Decision 14/1.5 should apply to a player changing his intent.  That decision specifically says that any doubt about the players intent is resolved against the player.  As with many things, we may be seeing the same video, with differing opinions as to when a "decision" is made.

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Here's a decent account of the proceedings:

senden.jpg

A bizarre series of events and some controversy arrived at Royal Pines during Thursday’s opening round of the Australian PGA Championship, when John Senden’s driver snapped during his downswing on the 9th tee.

 

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1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

Fair enough. IIRC you were not in favor of that yourself some time ago when that happened (via Lexi rule). I am entitled to my opinion too.

You are, just as I'm entitled to tell you why having a snap opinion and suggesting a rules change based on a once-in-a-fluorescent-blue-moon event, uhhhh, "lacks thought and consideration." 😄

And I don't think you're correct recalling my stance on the Lexi issue. Her replacement of the ball in the improper location was visible with the naked eye. HD was not necessary.

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

Did not ignore at all. I said if slo-mo was available. Not the whole thing. I deal with the practicality and difficulty rules enforcement all day everyday (my job).

Right… that's the dumb part. 🙂 Golf rules are, right now and in 2019, written to base things on what you can see with the naked eye. This helps to keep the standard the same across the board, whether it's you playing a casual round or Tiger playing at the British Open.

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

It's clear to me that he seems to be pulling up and successfully avoided striking the ball (chicken wing finish seems consistent with someone whose intention is to NOT strike).

I don't think that's clear (to me) at all.

Have you ever seen a clubhead snap off of a club at impact? Your finish looks VERY different, even though there was NO intent at all to finish that way.

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BTW, it wasn't noted here, but John Senden got to drop to play his second (with a 3-wood) instead of having to play the ball sitting 2" up in the air with his 3-wood.

Can anyone here tell us why (without looking it up anywhere but the USGA or R&A rules)? He was lying one and his ball was in play, after all.

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Senden himself has apparently taken the burden off of the official, saying he didn't have time to try to stop his swing:

Quote

“The actual club broke in the handle coming down into the impact area,” Senden said of the incident. “I had no chance of actually stopping the shot, so unfortunately that counts as actually one stroke. I was playing two shots off the tee. So, you know, it just happens. I've seen it happen before to other players, but first time it's happened to me in a tournament.”

I did read the answer to @iacas question in that same article, but I doubt I'd have come up with the right answer on my own.  

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4 hours ago, iacas said:

Right… that's the dumb part. 🙂 Golf rules are, right now and in 2019, written to base things on what you can see with the naked eye. This helps to keep the standard the same across the board, whether it's you playing a casual round or Tiger playing at the British Open.

So now you support the rule change leveling the playing field from an enforcement stand point of view? Seems like your version of 'trophy for everyone'. I know what the rule is. There's only ten thousand posts in that thread. 

Dumb? - hah, why? I don't think they should have made it THAT standard. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Have you ever seen a clubhead snap off of a club at impact? 

Ha ha. Yes, I have more than once - and not the first time on slo-mo either. Heck have myself snapped my driver head at Pinehurst few years ago in an almost similar fashion. I have a post in my 'My Swing' thread. My golf bag had fallen off the cart on the previous hole and must have 'kinked' the shaft.  

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Your finish looks VERY different, even though there was NO intent at all to finish that way.

Not sure I understand the point. What's that gotta do with Senden's normal finish compared to this one? Senden doesn't chicken wing or spin out on his normal swing (duh...) that you see in his club break swing - which to me are both symptoms of someone (of a level of a touring pro) trying to avoid contact. Especially the spin out part. Geoff Ogilvy pointed that out too. 

Senden said in his interview that it was too late to stop the club but didn't say he didn't try to stop - implying he did.  

The funny thing is the RO had not seen the swing in person or on a replay. And if unclear he could have taken his playing partner's word who has no vested interest. But he didn't. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Can anyone here tell us why (without looking it up anywhere but the USGA or R&A rules)? He was lying one and his ball was in play, after all.

I read up earlier so I know why it's a free drop, but I won't spoil it for others. 

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35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Senden himself has apparently taken the burden off of the official, saying he didn't have time to try to stop his swing. @iacas

Of course he did. Anything he would say otherwise truth or not won't change a thing and he will simply come across as a whiner. 

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