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Tour Players and 2019 Rules (Running Topic)

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18 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I would disagree, I’ve played on many greens where you can see clear footprints for a couple of minutes after walking/standing on them.

Oh please.

18 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I’m also curious why practice strokes count for this...it’s almost by definition not your “actual” stance.

Because he was standing in essentially the same position he would be in to play the ball.

Look, pros And caddies on both major tours have been getting hammered over the head about this rule for months now and there is absolutely no excuse for any of them to be breaking it at this point.

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What a horrible interview and explanation by Sligger. He didn’t explain it all why they reversed their decision and all he said was that the  caddie was not supposed to be back there and the player was getting ready to play. 

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23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh please.

Because he was standing in essentially the same position he would be in to play the ball.

Look, pros And caddies on both major tours have been getting hammered over the head about this rule for months now and there is absolutely no excuse for any of them to be breaking it at this point.

Oh please? Very common in my experience when wearing spikeless Trues or Footjoys. The studs make little impressions and there are so many it makes a clear footprint. I can’t be the only one to have seen this. In fact, the green is the only grassy place I’ve ever really noticed clear footprints, not that I’ve paid much attention to it in the fairways or rough.

I don’t disagree they should know the rule, but the pros probably think making your stance involves putting your club behind the ball in preparing to hit it. That’s the example given in the interpretations.

Otherwise, you’re putting more judgement into the rule. How close to the ball can you be when making a practice stroke for it to not to be a penalty? A yard? A foot? If you define stance more clearly it’s not a problem.  I’m sure some will say just don’t have the caddy stand there and it’s not a problem, but there still needs to be a clear definition IMO.

Edited by drmevo

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7 minutes ago, drmevo said:

the pros probably think making your stance involves putting your club behind the ball in preparing to hit it. That’s the example given.

No it isn't.

Screen Shot 2019-02-02 at 4.09.24 PM.png

The club is in the air and his feet aren't set like they will be in making the stroke.

Furthermore:

Quote
10.2b(4)/1 – Examples of When Player Begins Taking His or Her Stance

Rule 10.2b(4) does not allow a player to have his or her caddie deliberately stand behind him or her when the player begins taking a stance because aiming at the intended target is one of the challenges the player must overcome alone.

There is no set procedure for determining when a player has begun to take a stance since each player has his or her own set-up routine. However, if a player has his or her feet or body close to a position where useful guidance on aiming at the intended target could be given, it should be decided that the player has begun to take his or her stance.

Examples of when a player has begun to take a stance include when:

  • The player is standing beside the ball but facing the hole with his or her club behind the ball, and then starts to turn his or her body to face the ball.
  • After standing behind the ball to determine the target line, the player takes a step forward and then starts to turn his or her body and puts a foot in place for the stroke.

So no. Plus, again, the PGA Tour and European Tour have been hammering the pros and their caddies with this.

7 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Otherwise, you’re putting more judgement into the rule. How close to the ball can you be when making a practice stroke for it to not to be a penalty? A yard? A foot? If you define stance more clearly it’s not a problem.

Stance has a definition in the Rules of Golf. I understand being unclear about when a player is "beginning to take his stance," but the guidelines are in the Interpretations, as well as in that image. Caddies should get out of the extension and the area when their player is close to the ball.

7 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I’m sure some will say just don’t have the caddy stand there and it’s not a problem, but there still needs to be a clear definition IMO.

I think it's about as clear as it could be. And yeah, caddies, don't stand there.

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29 minutes ago, iacas said:

No it isn't

I edited it to add, “in the interpretations” right after I posted it. The two examples there include a foot being in place and the club being in place to make the stroke. I hadn’t seen that graphic but it looks to me like one of the feet is in place. Neither of those two criteria are met in a practice swing. And look, I agree with the idea behind the general rule and recognize that it’s extremely difficult to define a rule like this without compromising somewhere. It just seems crazy you can fix the situation on the green before making a stroke but not elsewhere.

ETA: Of course you’re right about stance being defined, I should’ve said “beginning to take a stance,” but it sounds like you got my point.

Edited by drmevo

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17 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Neither of those two criteria are met in a practice swing.

Slugger should have said that. That's what it looks like was their "out" for rescinding the penalty.

17 minutes ago, drmevo said:

It just seems crazy you can fix the situation on the green before making a stroke but not elsewhere.

I don't think it's that crazy. I've been watching and I've yet to see foot prints on the greens, and yet I've seen a bunch of clearly trampled down grass in the rough.

Plus, putting still requires you to aim the putter head, AND it requires much more precision as the actual target is 4.25" wide.

I'm also just guessing at the USGA's/R&A's reasoning here. I'll look to get an official reason at my Rules seminar, but that's not until late-mid-March.

17 minutes ago, drmevo said:

ETA: Of course you’re right about stance being defined, I should’ve said “beginning to take a stance,” but it sounds like you got my point.

I think they've got enough to define that pretty well. You said it above - a club or a ball in position or very near to the position the player is going to use to hit the ball/play the shot.

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't think it's that crazy. I've been watching and I've yet to see foot prints on the greens, and yet I've seen a bunch of clearly trampled down grass in the rough.

Plus, putting still requires you to aim the putter head, AND it requires much more precision as the actual target is 4.25" wide.

I'm also just guessing at the USGA's/R&A's reasoning here. I'll look to get an official reason at my Rules seminar, but that's not until late-mid-March.

Perhaps it has more to do with the fact that the green is a much more confined area with other players more likely to be in close proximity. The caddy may have fewer reasonable places to stand and might accidentally find themselves out of position more easily. Who knows. 

Edited by drmevo

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4 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Perhaps it has more to do with the fact that the green is a much more confined area with other players more likely to be in close proximity. The caddy may have fewer reasonable places to stand and might accidentally find themselves out of position more easily. Who knows. 

Maybe.

I'll ask in March, but I'm sure they had a reason. They don't just make things up for no reason at all.

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Just amazed at how bad some pros can be at knowing the rules. It's part of their jobs.

I will admit I haven't paid close attention to this rule because I rarely use a caddie and have never used a caddy to line up. When I saw the McCarthy video I thought it was a grey area but with the details @iacasprovided, it's clear he did violate the rule. Basically there is no reason a caddie should be behind the player close to their line of play.

 

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47 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Just amazed at how bad some pros can be at knowing the rules. It's part of their jobs.

I will admit I haven't paid close attention to this rule because I rarely use a caddie and have never used a caddy to line up. When I saw the McCarthy video I thought it was a grey area but with the details @iacasprovided, it's clear he did violate the rule. Basically there is no reason a caddie should be behind the player close to their line of play.

 

Few of us employ a caddie very often, either. To keep you in the clear, don't forget that when playing four-ball or foursomes in either stroke play or match play, your partner isn't permitted to do any of the things a caddie cannot do. :)

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

Maybe.

I'll ask in March, but I'm sure they had a reason. They don't just make things up for no reason at all.

I still find it quite amazing that professional golfers would feel that they need help in lining up for a shot.   In my opinion, proper alignment and aim is part of the swing, and since assistance in making a stroke has always been against the rules, this extension seems appropriate.

When I first saw it on the women's tour years ago, my only thought was "That looks weird!"  But it seems to be getting more popular, which may have something to do with why they added the prohibition.  One or two random players probably would never have been noticed, but it seemed to become a crutch for many of the Korean ladies, and has spread quite a bit beyond that.  

Edited by Fourputt

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1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

I still find it quite amazing that professional golfers would feel that they need help in lining up for a shot.

To play devil's advocate, they're not getting help lining up. The caddie is back there because, like the player, they're deciding the line they want to flight the ball on and other types of things.

None of these caddies have actually helped their players "line up" as far as I can tell. But they are in a "bad area" awfully close to or into the time when players are beginning to take their stances.

The Rule, I think you'd agree, can't be written like "caddies cannot help players line up" because that would be a horrible way to write the rule, so like before where a caddie couldn't stay there when a stroke was being made, they changed the language here to say they can't be there when a stance is being made. 😄

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55 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

Wasn't this rule just added to speed up play?

No.

Has more to do with lining up being something a golfer should be able to do himself.

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