Rules Quiz - Hole in One, Double Bogey or Other?

[p1n9183]

Rule quiz from a friend at my home course that is an active Rule official at the Bristish Open, US Open.. etc.

Your are on a Par 3. Hit your first shot in the direction of the green but the sun in your face don´t let you see where it land. You look for it all over the place for more than 3 minutes and call it lost. You go back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot with a 2nd ball, it land on the green. 2 putts for a 5. In that moment you realice that your first ball is in the hole.
What´s your score for the hole: 1(first ball), 5(second ball) or another rule or score apply?

Edited January 29, 2019 by p1n9183

[djfajt71]

I chose hole in one, based on the fact that once your original is holed, the hole is considered completed.

[iacas]

This isn't an original question.

I think in the new Rules and Interpretations it's under 6.5/1 . In the old rules it was 1-1/2:

[phillyk]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

This isn't an original question.

I think in the new Rules and Interpretations it's under 6.5/1 . In the old rules it was 1-1/2:

Fair enough, changed my vote haha.  So the shots following wouldn't be considered practice because he was unaware of the completion of the hole?
EDIT: It would make sense, obviously.  Just an interesting situation.  I would always check the hole before declaring a ball lost.

Edited January 29, 2019 by phillyk

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, phillyk said:

EDIT: It would make sense, obviously.  Just an interesting situation.  I would always check the hole before declaring a ball lost.

You can't "declare" a ball lost.

I've seen a guy play a provisional when his ball went in the hole. It was a semi-blind shot, he bounced it well right off a dune or mound or something, and it went in the hole. The mound was near some tall weeds/grass/brush, so he played a provisional and would have played out the hole with that ball, except that we yelled at him from the tee box where we were that his first ball had gone in.

[phillyk]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can't "declare" a ball lost.

I guess I meant it in the sense that if you fail to verbally declare a 2nd ball a provisional, it in essence declares the 1st ball lost, even if eventually found.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, phillyk said:

I guess I meant it in the sense that if you fail to verbally declare a 2nd ball a provisional, it in essence declares the 1st ball lost, even if eventually found.

The ball is not lost in that case either; another ball has simply been put into play under stroke and distance.

At any time, a player may take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6).

The definition for Lost:

The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.

If the search begins and is then temporarily interrupted for a good reason (blah blah blah…).

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, phillyk said:

Fair enough, changed my vote haha.  So the shots following wouldn't be considered practice because he was unaware of the completion of the hole?
EDIT: It would make sense, obviously.  Just an interesting situation.  I would always check the hole before declaring a ball lost.

The new Decision 6.5/1 specifically addresses this

Quote

If the player did not know the hole was completed and attempts to complete play of the hole with another ball, the player’s further play is not considered practice (Rule 5.5a).

 

[AlDena]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

You can't "declare" a ball lost.

I've seen a guy play a provisional when his ball went in the hole. It was a semi-blind shot, he bounced it well right off a dune or mound or something, and it went in the hole. The mound was near some tall weeds/grass/brush, so he played a provisional and would have played out the hole with that ball, except that we yelled at him from the tee box where we were that his first ball had gone in.

"I do declare, my ball appears to be lost."

To which I replied, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

[p1n9183]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

This isn't an original question.

I think in the new Rules and Interpretations it's under 6.5/1 . In the old rules it was 1-1/2:

Exactly!

20 hours ago, iacas said:

You can't "declare" a ball lost.

I've seen a guy play a provisional when his ball went in the hole. It was a semi-blind shot, he bounced it well right off a dune or mound or something, and it went in the hole. The mound was near some tall weeds/grass/brush, so he played a provisional and would have played out the hole with that ball, except that we yelled at him from the tee box where we were that his first ball had gone in.

But he is allowed to play a provisional if he thinks the 1st ball is going to be hard to find.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

But he is allowed to play a provisional if he thinks the 1st ball is going to be hard to find.

I was just clarifying that you can't "declare" a ball lost.

[saevel25]

A ball is or is not lost. Declaring the ball lost is saying that you have a choice if the ball is lost or not, when you don't.

That is why you have to declare you are taking a provisional. It isn't something that is decided for you.

There is a situation where a player doesn't want the ball to be found. Phil had this situation once. He hit a ball into some crap and hit a really good provisional. He didn't really search for the ball because he would then be forced to take the dropping rules for an unplayable lie. Which one of the options would be to have to play stroke and distance.

Phil can not declare his ball not found. He has to wait out the 5 minutes, or play his provisional from a point past where his ball would expected to be. A fan found his ball before he could hit his provisional.

Spoiler

(2) When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play. The provisional ballProvisional Ball: Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be: becomes the player’s ball in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: under penalty of stroke and distanceStroke and Distance: The procedure and penalty when a player takes relief under Rules 17, 18 or 19 by playing a ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6). in either of these two cases:

• When Original Ball Is Lost Anywhere on Course Except in Penalty Area or Is Out of Bounds. The original ball is no longer in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: (even if it is then found on the courseCourse: The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee: after the end of the three-minute search time) and is now a wrong ballWrong Ball: Any ball other than the player’s: that must not be played (see Rule 6.3c).

• When Provisional Ball Is Played from Spot Nearer Hole Than Where Original Ball Is Estimated to Be. The original ball is no longer in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: (even if it is then found on the courseCourse: The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee: before the end of the three-minute search time or is found nearer the holeHole: The finishing point on the putting green for the hole being played: than had been estimated) and is now a wrong ballWrong Ball: Any ball other than the player’s: that must not be played (see Rule 6.3c).

So, he was required to go back to the tee and hit another play because the unplayable lie rule would be way more penalizing for him.

 

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

A ball is or is not lost. Declaring the ball lost is saying that you have a choice if the ball is lost or not, when you don't.

That is why you have to declare you are taking a provisional. It isn't something that is decided for you.

There is a situation where a player doesn't want the ball to be found. Phil had this situation once. He hit a ball into some crap and hit a really good provisional. He didn't really search for the ball because he would then be forced to take the dropping rules for an unplayable lie. Which one of the options would be to have to play stroke and distance.

Phil can not declare his ball not found. He has to wait out the 5 minutes, or play his provisional from a point past where his ball would expected to be. A fan found his ball before he could hit his provisional.

  Reveal hidden contents

(2) When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play. The provisional ballProvisional Ball: Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be: becomes the player’s ball in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: under penalty of stroke and distanceStroke and Distance: The procedure and penalty when a player takes relief under Rules 17, 18 or 19 by playing a ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6). in either of these two cases:

• When Original Ball Is Lost Anywhere on Course Except in Penalty Area or Is Out of Bounds. The original ball is no longer in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: (even if it is then found on the courseCourse: The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee: after the end of the three-minute search time) and is now a wrong ballWrong Ball: Any ball other than the player’s: that must not be played (see Rule 6.3c).

• When Provisional Ball Is Played from Spot Nearer Hole Than Where Original Ball Is Estimated to Be. The original ball is no longer in playIn Play: The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole: (even if it is then found on the courseCourse: The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee: before the end of the three-minute search time or is found nearer the holeHole: The finishing point on the putting green for the hole being played: than had been estimated) and is now a wrong ballWrong Ball: Any ball other than the player’s: that must not be played (see Rule 6.3c).

So, he was required to go back to the tee and hit another play because the unplayable lie rule would be way more penalizing for him.

 

And Phil was STEAMED at the folks who went to look for that ball after he asked them not to, but there was nothing he could do to prevent them from looking.

[p1n9183]

Could he call the ball unplayable from the tee and reTee without looking for it with penalty and distance? let´s say he is lazy and know that every ball in the crap area results in an unplayable ball.

[Asheville]

12 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

Could he call the ball unplayable from the tee and reTee without looking for it with penalty and distance? let´s say he is lazy and know that every ball in the crap area results in an unplayable ball.

The player generally must find the ball in order to decide that it's unplayable. He may employ stroke-and-distance at any time

19.2/5 – Player Must Find Ball to Use Back-On-the-Line or Lateral Relief Options

Edited January 30, 2019 by Asheville

[Missouri Swede]

8 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

Could he call the ball unplayable from the tee and reTee without looking for it with penalty and distance? let´s say he is lazy and know that every ball in the crap area results in an unplayable ball.

Don’t call it unplayable.  Just replay under stroke and distance.

Quote

18.1

Relief under Penalty of Stroke and Distance Allowed at Any Time

At any time, a player may take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6). 

The player always has this stroke-and-distance relief option:

• No matter where the player’s ball is on the course, and
• Even when a Rule requires the player to take relief in a certain way or to play a ball from a certain place. 

Once the player puts another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.4😞

• The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
• This is true even if the original ball is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

 

[p1n9183]

5 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Don’t call it unplayable.  Just replay under stroke and distance.

 

Nice! so the worst i can punish my scorecard in one shot is 2 strokes.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

So, he was required to go back to the tee and hit another play because the unplayable lie rule would be way more penalizing for him.

I think I know the answer, but just want to check: Is he now hitting three (from the tee)? 

I’m thinking his first tee shot was one stroke. Hitting his provisional from the tee was never a ball in play (since his original ball was found and wasn’t out of bounds), and so does not add to his score. Then stroke and distance relief back to the tee relative to his original tee shot.