2015 NFL Football Thread

[Shindig]

16 hours ago, dak4n6 said:

My Eagles?!?! Nooooo! It burns! It burns! I'm born and raised in NY! I have to go wash my brain out....

Sorry... I somehow got the other impression when you described the Eagles/Giants game a few posts ago.  But then again, Jeff Lurie didn't grow up an Eagles fan either (he is one of several owners in the league who didn't grow up fans of the team they now own, speaking of business decisions).

 

Anyway, as for the topic at hand -- trivia about next week's game.  This is the Broncos' eighth appearance, none of which were lead by a QB they drafted (one by Cowboys, seven by Colts)?  Gary Kubiak was the only QB drafted by the Broncos to play in a Super Bowl as a Bronco.

[dak4n6]

8 hours ago, Shindig said:

Sorry... I somehow got the other impression when you described the Eagles/Giants game a few posts ago.  But then again, Jeff Lurie didn't grow up an Eagles fan either (he is one of several owners in the league who didn't grow up fans of the team they now own, speaking of business decisions).

 

Anyway, as for the topic at hand -- trivia about next week's game.  This is the Broncos' eighth appearance, none of which were lead by a QB they drafted (one by Cowboys, seven by Colts)?  Gary Kubiak was the only QB drafted by the Broncos to play in a Super Bowl as a Bronco.

 

Wait a second, Elway? I'm not going the cheat by looking it up.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, dak4n6 said:

 

Wait a second, Elway? I'm not going the cheat by looking it up.

Elway was drafted by the Colts even though he had said that he would not play for them - said he'd play baseball instead.  They took him anyway, then traded him to Denver.  

[saevel25]

Lynn Swann says that Calvin Johnson doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. 

Quote

Still, Swann does not think Johnson should join him in the Hall of Fame when he becomes eligible in five years. “Hard to say he's going to be in the Hall of Fame when his team hasn't gotten to a Super Bowl, and they don't get a chance to get into the playoffs,” Swann said, per the Detroit News. “And that's for a lot of guys across the board. If he had broken every passing record, like Danny Fouts, who didn't win the Super Bowl, then yeah, I think there's going to be consideration.”

Sorry, but this logic is totally false. Not every player needs to win a championship to be in the HOF. Good players tend to be on good teams. If Lebron James never won a championship, but put up numbers and wins like he did in the regular season he would be in the HOF. 

I am not sure if Calvin Johnson is HOF worthy. He's 27th all time in receiving yards and 22nd all time in TD's. Does a top 25 WR, who played 8 season,s get into the HOF with out a Superbowl win?  

Ask yourself how important the WR position is to winning the Superbowl? I would say it's one of the lesser important pieces of contribution. If so should we put this criteria on WR's in terms of HOF consideration? 

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Ask yourself how important the WR position is to winning the Superbowl? I would say it's one of the lesser important pieces of contribution. If so should we put this criteria on WR's in terms of HOF consideration? 

But hey, what do I know about the importance of Wide Receivers to winning the Super Bowl… The Steelers have three of those six WR MVPs.

[newtogolf]

Quote

I am not sure if Calvin Johnson is HOF worthy. He's 27th all time in receiving yards and 22nd all time in TD's. Does a top 25 WR, who played 8 seasons get into the HOF with out a Superbowl win? 

I'm not sure those stats are HOF worthy either.  He seemed so dominant for so many years I would have guessed he was closer to Top 10 in yards.  If they factor in he put up these numbers while on a subpar team it might help his case but based strictly on stats, it's iffy.

[saevel25]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

But hey, what do I know about the importance of Wide Receivers to winning the Super Bowl… The Steelers have three of those six WR MVPs.

Not sure how accurate the opinions are of the people who vote for the MVP award 

I would say the O-line should have a few of those. Not many RB's or QB's can survive with out a good O-line performance. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

Not sure how accurate the opinions are of the people who vote for the MVP award 

The point remains they're the third most often rewarded, and barely behind running backs.

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

I would say the O-line should have a few of those. Not many RB's or QB's can survive with out a good O-line performance. 

You can't give an MVP to multiple people.

And you're veering far from your own topic now. I think a career should generally include some post-season performances. Otherwise, it had better be a super-stellar record. CJ's is not super-stellar.

I agree with Swann.

[saevel25]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

And you're veering far from your own topic now. I think a career should generally include some post-season performances. Otherwise, it had better be a super-stellar record. CJ's is not super-stellar.

I agree with Swann.

I think it's a slippery slope of people using it as the only criteria to keep people out of the HOF. It would be rare, but if you are a top 10 WR in stats across the board and looked dominant on the field as well then HOF for sure. I don't think you need to break every stat, like that equals one super bowl win. There are some 3rd WR who get a Super bowl Win who have little contribution. I'll agree that a post season record helps, without it the criteria is higher for HOF. I don't agree with Swann as him stating that he has to break every record. 

In the case of Calvin I don't think he has had a HOF career. If he had about 5-6 more years of producing near where he has been than it would be an interesting discussion if his team never made it to a Superbowl. 

[Patch]

57 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Not sure how accurate the opinions are of the people who vote for the MVP award 

I would say the O-line shouldvel25 have a few of those. Not many RB's or QB's can survive with out a good O-line performance. 

Now that I think about it, Saevel25 has a good point. O-lines contribute quite a bit to QBs, RBs and even WRs successful, long term performances. Obviously you can't give multiple awards, but recognizing, or giving tribute a group of players is not that farfetched. Of course if you recognize the OL group for stellar play, a great DL group could be recognized also. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Patch said:

Now that I think about it, Saevel25 has a good point. O-lines contribute quite a bit to QBs, RBs and even WRs successful, long term performances. Obviously you can't give multiple awards, but recognizing, or giving tribute a group of players is not that farfetched. Of course if you recognize the OL group for stellar play, a great DL group could be recognized also. 

They are recognized. They all get a ring if they do their job well.

[Patch]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

They are recognized. They all get a ring if they do their job well.

True, but none of those HOFers recieved their accolades by playing 1 against 11.

[Fourputt]

To the question about Johnson, no I don't think he has had a HOF career.  It may not be entirely his fault, but it is what it is.  He had the bad luck to be on a weak team, and that will always work against him.  Just as have a potentially great career cut short by injury can do the same.  

Terrell Davis is probably the best running back ever to play for Denver.  He is given much of the credit for being the key factor in putting Elway over the top and taking John and the Broncos to 2 Super Bowl victories.  John certainly wasn't any better those 2 years than he had been for previous decade, but suddenly having a dependable running game was the difference.  In an injury shortened career that saw only 16 starts in his last 3 seasons (out of 6 total seasons), Davis still amassed over 7600 yards from scrimmage during the regular season. He averaged 142.5 yards per game in his 8 playoff games over 3 years.  One of a handful of RB's to top 2000 yards in a season, and actually sat out several 4th quarters that season.  

Awards and accolades:

1996 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year 
1997 NFL Super Bowl MVP 
1998 NFL AP MVP 
1998 NFL PFWA MVP 
1998 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year 
Pro Football Hall of Fame 2nd team All-1990s Team

All of that, yet he has failed to pass the HOF voting the last 2 years.  I'd say that he far outranks Johnson, yet he still waits in the wings.

[jamo]

I have no idea why, but off the top of my head, I'd vote for TD but not CJ.

[turtleback]

I have no opinion on HOF-worthiness because all of the HOFs have become pretty much jokes.

But

Calvin Johnson > Lynn Swann as a receiver

Put Swann on the teams Johnson played with and they will do even worse.

Put Johnson on the teams Swann won Superbowls with and they get better.

IMO

 

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, turtleback said:

I have no opinion on HOF-worthiness because all of the HOFs have become pretty much jokes.

But

Calvin Johnson > Lynn Swann as a receiver

Put Swann on the teams Johnson played with and they will do even worse.

Put Johnson on the teams Swann won Superbowls with and they get better.

IMO

 

It was a different game back then. Put Lynn Swann on Pitt today and he would have Antonio Brown numbers. He was an excellent receiver.

[newtogolf]

Calvin Johnson had some great seasons, he broke 1,000 yards 8* (984 yards in '09) out of 9 seasons.  The problem imo is he needs a longer body of work or post season stats to push him into the HOF category.

[Shindig]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

You can't give an MVP to multiple people.

I'm not disagreeing with you on your other points, but in Super Bowl 12, two players split the award, so it seems they can give the MVP to multiple people, but often don't.  In 49 of 50 Super Bowls held so far, only one person won the MVP, just like in 49 out of 50 the winner(s) of MVP came from the winning team.