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How do I translate the 5 keys into the swing I'm currently learning when some of the keys run against what I'm trying to learn. OK, so steady head ...well OK, sure . But weight forward....mmm, no, My LPG swing requires me stand flat footed with my weight on my back foot. "flat left wrist", well I'm playing with a flat left(right) Forearm, so, no "key" there. And "clubface control" , hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver, aren't we supposed to be hitting on the up for better distance. and even with the LPG swing the swing path is very shallow with very long shallow divots. sometimes I feel like I'm hitting on the up with a 7 iron. Maybe the 5 keys should be renamed "the 5 sort of keys that some players do sometimes when they're trying to swing like pro golfers do"

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by logman

How do I translate the 5 keys into the swing I'm currently learning when some of the keys run against what I'm trying to learn. OK, so steady head ...well OK, sure .

That's just it, there aren't any Keys that "run against" what you should be working on.  The Keys are based on factual information, not opinions.

There is no reason to intentionally not keep the head steady, to move it from side to side in the golf swing.  The average PGA Tour player moves his head one inch during his backswing and less on his downswing.  There are many reasons the best golfers maintain a steady head during their golf swing.

Originally Posted by logman

But weight forward....mmm, no, My LPG swing requires me stand flat footed with my weight on my back foot.

Weight Forward at impact.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure what LPG is but we know the average amateur has 55% of their pressure forward at impact while the the average PGA Tour player has between 80-95% of his pressure on his front foot at impact.

Originally Posted by logman

"flat left wrist", well I'm playing with a flat left(right) Forearm, so, no "key" there.

No good or great golfers "flip" at the ball a significant amount, and a flat left wrist helps to compress the ball to strike it "pure" every time.

Originally Posted by logman

And "clubface control" , hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver, aren't we supposed to be hitting on the up for better distance. and even with the LPG swing the swing path is very shallow with very long shallow divots. sometimes I feel like I'm hitting on the up with a 7 iron. Maybe the 5 keys should be renamed "the 5 sort of keys that some players do sometimes when they're trying to swing like pro golfers do"

Where does it say Key #5 is about a "descending blow"?  Key #5 begins with understanding the ball flight laws and concludes with applying the principles to your golf swing by learning to control the clubface.  There is a very good chance you're not hitting up with your 7 iron.

Obviously have to have some decent for irons and we very much agree in having a positive AoA for the driver, hitting up.  This thread was started a year and a half ago

http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern

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MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

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Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

hahhahhhhhhhahhahahhhahhha.

Ahem.

You have no idea.

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Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.

I certainly have no false hope that I will ever be able to hit like a pro, but the 5 basic principals are pretty universal. Regardless of your swing, if you work on these 5 things I believe you will improve. My swing is nothing like "the swing promoted here", but these 5 particular "keys" are still invaluable and things I work on because they are certainly applicable.

Originally Posted by logman

.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable.

If you would like to take the grip and wrists out of your swing I would say go right ahead! However you will not likely ever attain even a reasonable usable swing if you do.

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Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....

Yeah, who wants to flush the ball all day long.  That's just boring.  I just want to dig ditches for 18 holes.  That sounds like a WAY more fun way to play golf!

Originally Posted by logman

hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver,

I hear some dude named Tigger does that?  I hear he's a decent duffer too.

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Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

What do the pros do better than nearly all amateurs? They get the same results out of their swing over and over.

What helps you to get the same result over and over? A swing that is easy to repeat.

So to get a swing that is easy to repeat, that will give me the same result as often as possible where am I going to look? At those who do it best, pros.

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I know what an RPG is - both definitions - but what the hell is an LPG?  Are you leaving off the A?

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Pretty sure it's Lever Power Golf see logmans other post on it;  Seems he's promoting it or drank the kool-aid.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60285/kuykendalls-lpg-swing/0_30

Originally Posted by bwdial

I know what an RPG is - both definitions - but what the hell is an LPG?  Are you leaving off the A?

Joe Paradiso

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Whatever works for this guy - but to come on here as he did is OB.

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Yeah.  I saw the OP's other thread about lever power golf (LPG).  I looked for youtube vids of guys actually doing it and it all looked very unathletic and snake oily to me.  But whatever, it's not like there aren't other ways to physically swing a club, and some other method delivers repeatable results for you, then cool.

This post, however = LAME.  So the OP and 5 other guys are trying to swing the golf club in a totally different way.  The 5SK guys have a totally reasonable teaching philosophy and system for how every single other person who plays golf tries to swing (more or less).  The OP's original thread extolling the virtues of his preferred method is fine.  Here it's just unproductive.

Look at Rustyredcab and the Moe Norman swing guys.  They do a bunch of things differently from how Erik or Mike would teach.  They extoll the virtues of their chosen swing style and talk about how it's helped them.  If prompted they might discuss why they think some of the stuff in the more standard style swing is harder to repeat consistently.  They don't write vindictive, mean-spirited posts attacking others for having a different swing style.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reedf View Post

I certainly have no false hope that I will ever be able to hit like a pro, but the 5 basic principals are pretty universal. Regardless of your swing, if you work on these 5 things I believe you will improve. My swing is nothing like "the swing promoted here", but these 5 particular "keys" are still invaluable and things I work on because they are certainly applicable.

Thanks.  With this game we are at the mercy of how the equipment is made.  Golf clubs are built to be hit with shaft lean (Key#3), and are built on a tilted angle (Key #4).

You don't have to hit the same exact numbers as the tour averages to play good golf, just gradually move towards improving your priority piece.  There isn't necessarily a 5 Simple Keys "swing" because swings from Jim Furyk to Matt Kuchar fulfill the 5 Keys.  Obviously very different looking swing but both keep their head steady, have the weight forward at impact, have a flat left wrist, swing the club on an inclined plane (different ends of the spectrum but neither is "straight back and straight through") and both understand their pattern and know how to align their body and clubface to accommodate for certain shots.  I'm saying this because if a student came to us with an unique backswing, like Furyk, and consistently hit it solid, we wouldn't change it to just to make the picture look better.  Now if the unique backswing consistently caused problems then you'd have to make a move towards a motion that would produce less compensations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post

This post, however = LAME.  So the OP and 5 other guys are trying to swing the golf club in a totally different way.  The 5SK guys have a totally reasonable teaching philosophy and system for how every single other person who plays golf tries to swing (more or less).  The OP's original thread extolling the virtues of his preferred method is fine.  Here it's just unproductive.

Look at Rustyredcab and the Moe Norman swing guys.  They do a bunch of things differently from how Erik or Mike would teach.  They extoll the virtues of their chosen swing style and talk about how it's helped them.  If prompted they might discuss why they think some of the stuff in the more standard style swing is harder to repeat consistently.  They don't write vindictive, mean-spirited posts attacking others for having a different swing style.

Thanks.  Here is a quote from Chuck Evans and I think he does a great job of explaining the values of a system.

Quote:
5SK takes what the greatest players in history have done and breaks it down to well...5 Simple Keys.

With the aid of the latest in technology, 3D Doppler Radar - Flightscope, 3D Motion Analysis - AMM 3D, and Pressure information from Swing Catalyst -3D motion plate system, people watching the DVD can see precisely how the body moves and the relationship between the body, clubface and clubhead.

5SK is not a "method" but rather a system that allows any "method" to be taught within it whether it is S&T;, One Plane two Plane, Natural Golf, Impact Zone, 8 Step Swing, TGM, MORAD etc.

By having this information the player, and the coach, can continue to use their preferred methodology within the 5SK.

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Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

Your premise is false.  The pros don't employ the most difficult swing in golf, they employ the easiest swing in golf.  If you get more enjoyment from the game by employing a more difficult swing, that's another matter.  Perhaps you need more of a challenge to keep it interesting.  However, I suspect that the rest of the golfing world simply prefers to play the best golf they are able to play, rather than something less than their best.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

Pretty sure it's Lever Power Golf see logmans other post on it;  Seems he's promoting it or drank the kool-aid.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60285/kuykendalls-lpg-swing/0_30

Ahh... okay... thanks.  I took a sip of that Kool-Aid about a decade and a half ago.  Didn't like the taste.

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I thought it was Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

There is no reason to intentionally not keep the head steady, to move it from side to side in the golf swing.  The average PGA Tour player moves his head one inch during his backswing and less on his downswing.  There are many reasons the best golfers maintain a steady head during their golf swing.

Hey MvMac.... can you link me to any of the info you talk about here (studies or such). I am interested in how they worked out that info -  was it just to static postitions (e.g comparing set up to top of the swing) or was it through actually tracking the head movement of a player throughout the swing?

does this only apply to lateral head movement, or to up and down, forward and back head movement also?

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

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Originally Posted by Adam Young

Hey MvMac.... can you link me to any of the info you talk about here (studies or such). I am interested in how they worked out that info -  was it just to static postitions (e.g comparing set up to top of the swing) or was it through actually tracking the head movement of a player throughout the swing?

does this only apply to lateral head movement, or to up and down, forward and back head movement also?

Lateral head movement, and as many or most of the studies we have are paid for, no, we can't link you to them. If there's public data on this I'm sure you're capable of finding it, but our data comes from things we've bought, so we're not at liberty to share them.


Originally Posted by Adam Young

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

I'm certain you're capable of finding YouTube videos of tour pros, no? This isn't really the thread for that.

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Note: This thread is 4306 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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I couldn't even get the ball in the air, I was topping everything at first. Then when I tried Moe Norman's famous 'vertical drop' as he called it, I fatted the mat every time. This went on for the hour I was in there. I left there tired, frustrated and about to say 'screw it'. But when I got to my car and went to get in the seat, I noticed something: Even after about a hundred swings, my back was totally fine. I thought maybe it was because I had injured it all those years ago with a rotary swing and now it had healed. Hmmmm...maybe that was it. After a couple days at home, and more video-watching of Moe and Moe alone, I went back to the hitting bay to see if I could find some sort of workable single plane swing based on what I had watched and taken notes on. This session went much better. Pretty straight ball flight (my miss was a slight cut), and no pulls or hooks (my old misses were the dreaded two-way misses, block or pull-hook). I had kinda-sorta figured out the 'vertical drop' deal, but it was too hard to time it consistently. When I did get the timing right, the ball went dead straight. HOWEVER...I was hitting with a 7-iron the whole time and my normal 148-yard shot now only traveled 134. 14 yards is a lot to give up...but I chalked it up to my swinging slower to get the timing down. Plus, I had no idea how the longer clubs would do or if I could even hit, say, a 3-wood with this swing. After another hundred shots or so, I called it a session and went home. So far, all I hit was a 7-iron with this 'swing' of mine. I had completely forgot about my back and didn't think about it until that evening and realized it felt fine. I thought to myself: "Even if you never get your normal distance back...wouldn't it be fun to just play golf again?" Then I thought to myself: "Self, it would be fun to be back on the golf course again." BUT...I was determined not to make a fool of myself out there, so I kept going back to the hitting bay. This third time I went back, I brought in only my Taylormade Burner 7 wood, thinking the shaft length is short enough that I can make contact with the ball, but it's a fairway wood, so I'll see if this swing can handle that. I hit it great...and straight...but the distance was, alas, like the 7-iron...just not there. "You're hitting it *really* straight though", I sad to myself, as if saying that would console a Recon Marine veteran who's ethos is that manly men do manly things...and a 165 yard 7-wood for me is about the furthest thing from 'manly' there can be on a golf course. Ego... I was torn between my love of playing the game on one hand, and on the other hand going out to the course with a swing that would be mocked, ridiculed and laughed at...but would look passable and understandable if I was 75 years old (I'm 54). Decisions decisions... I went back to the drawing board at home and thought "There's got to be some sort of compromise to this swing...some kind of combination of swings...something I can build that would get my old distance back but not destroy the lower lumbar of my spine." In the past 13 years, I had tried it *all*. Conventional swing, modern swing, stack and tilt (my back still hurts when I think of that one), rotary swing (hello shanks), the peak performance golf swing (don't ever fat one while trying that swing, you might break your wrists), 3/4 hold-off swing (great for wedges, not so much a driver), hand-and-arm swing...and on and on. Soooo...I went back to thinking about the width swing I had learned in the L.A.W.S of golf book and videos I had studied, and how I could implement the width element of that swing without destroying my back. It was the only swing technique I ever tried that got me comfortable distance and consistent impact and ball flight while swinging around say 85% or thereabouts. Hmmmm... What if I could combine it with a single plane swing? I know, I know...it sounds loony tunes. But I had already plunked down the $149 for a year's worth of unlimited hitting bay time at the PGA Superstore (commitment, right?), so I figured I had nothing to lose by attempting what would appear to be  moronic and ridiculous-looking setups and stances and swings in a hitting bay all by myself. The results have been nothing less than astounding to me. Setup (after four months of this on an actual driving range and getting *really* strange looks) is as follows (I'll have pics and video soon for whoever can bear to watch it): Grip: Left hand *slightly* strong, right hand neutral (this is to keep the ball from hooking off the planet). Alignment: All irons straight off the nose (I'll explain why in a bit), fairway woods of my left cheek, driver off my left nipple. Posture: *Slightly* hunched over with rounded shoulders (this is to give me room for my arms to come under my chest in the back swing). Foot Position: Left foot flared, right foot flared and dropped back about 12 inches (this gives me room to rotate my thoracic spine and gives the club depth in the width dimension, since I don't have Bubbas Watson's flexibility). Shoulders stay square with the target line. Hands stay high and in line with the lead forearm a la Moe Norman. Slight spine tilt away from the target. Backswing is in and up at a 45 degree angle if looking from behind. I only swing back until my lead forearm is parallel to the ground. I tuck the left elbow on the downswing and let it rip. The reason I play all my irons off my nose? Wait for it... All my irons... 7 iron to Sand Wedge... are single length irons. So I'm using a rotational swing...on a single plane...with single length irons (based off my 7 iron). Never hit my irons better in my life - and hitting just as far now as I was when I started golfing 13 years ago. Also - driver and fairway woods are stupid-easy for me to hit now. My misses are mostly a high cut now, and that only happens when I slide my left hip because I get fast at the top. As long as I keep my lower body quiet until my hands drop (they don't have far to drop, either), then I get a pretty dang straight ball flight. Pull hooks and block are now a thing of the past. Anyhoo, here's the setup of my clubs. I have about a 94 mph driver swing speed. Driver: Ping G410 9 degree cranked up to 10.5 degrees, Alta CB R flex carry is 235-ish  3-wood: Ping G 410 13.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is around 215 5-wood: Ping G-410 17.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is 202 7-wood 2008 Taylormade Burner, 21 degrees, stock REAX S flex 49 grams, carry is 192 9-wood Ping G410 23.5 degrees Alta CB R flex 65 grams, flat setting, stated loft, carry is 182 6 hybrid Ping G425 31 degrees Alta CB R flex 70 grams, stated loft, flat setting, carry is 158  Irons: are all custom fit Sterling single-length irons by Wishon Golf. 7 146 yds 8 135 yds 9 125 yds PW 110 GW 98 SW 83 Putter: Custom Edel blade I had made in 2012 after golfing for a year and I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. REALLY interested in getting fitted for a L.A.B DF 3 with a forearm grip...stroked a L.A.B. DF 2.1 at the PGA Superstore they had on the 'pre-owned' rack and it was $519 wuuuuut!!! So that's only 13 clubs...but I am looking on eBay to fill that gap where the 5 hybrid should be, would be a perfect 170 yd club right there I think. Before doing to the single length clubs, I had Ping irons 7-PW and four Vokeys in 48, 52, 56 and 60 in the bag and the single length clubs were gathering dust in the closet for the last 5 years. However, after actually playing a few rounds and seeing where the numbers were adding up, it was missed greens from 150 and in. So, I wanted to take the variable length mid and short irons out the the equation to keep my setup simpler. Gotta say, it worked like a charm.  Same setup as a 7-iron for all my scoring clubs and it keeps everything repeatable. Yes, it feels weird looking down at a wedge with 7-iron length, but I got used to it. The ball goes the same distances as my Ping irons and Vokey wedges used to but flies *way* higher and lands super soft. Also, if I want to chip or pitch with them I just choke down a little, as the swing weight difference won't matter much for those shots. I haven't actually kept score yet, as I haven't even gotten around to really working on my short game or putting at all. Right now, I'm just scoring fairways and greens hit or missed, approaches hit or missed and how many pars per round I can make. So far my best since this 'comeback' started is 8 pars, 1 birdie (almost had a hole-in-one lol), two bogies and seven 'others' (fats, thins, skulled chips across the green and tears may have been involved). I hit 3 of the Par 4 greens in regulation and hit 10 of 14 fairways. The ones I missed were not off the fairway by much and I finished the round with the same Pro V1X I started with - albeit a little scuffed up. Anyway, that's the story and after years of struggle I finally found something that works *for me*. I'll try to get some pics of setup and possibly video if anyone's interested and has a strong stomach haha. I'm gonna start reading the Dave Pelz short game and putting bibles this week, I'm sure that will be an adventure haha! Thanks for the space to write this.
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