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Originally Posted by
logman 
that's a very wide net you're casting there Iacas. Even a cursory look at the swing thoughts and my swings sections will confirm plenty of examples of the bad/good wrong/right school of coaching.
They're right or wrong for those particular students. Combined with the fact that many students have similar swing flaws (flaws you're not going to find in good or great players) and I can see how you might arrive at the thought that there's one pattern.
Are there examples (Ray Floyd is a great one) of someone whose takeaway doesn't line up at A2? You bet. I just named one. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of golfers put themselves into a bad spot from which they cannot recover if they roll their forearms like crazy to start their backswings. It's not a matter of "right" versus wrong - and 5SK doesn't mention A2 or where the club should be - but when someone Ray Floyds their takeaway and doesn't do what Ray does from there to the top of the backswing and into the transition, they're screwed because Keys #4 and #5 will be off.
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Originally Posted by
logman The Nick Faldo toe up picture comes to mind. Even your posting on your own swing describing 2 backswing angles and captioning them as wrong and right.
Toe up isn't wrong (saying that "toe up" is "square" is wrong, but that's another thing entirely. It's just another example of the above: people who roll the face more than often don't recover because they don't make the appropriate compensating moves to control Keys #4 and #5 from a toe-up, early-rotation position.
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Originally Posted by
logman Sure a steady head is a good thing. Is it important? maybe?. Imperative? obviously not. Peter Senior's head is all over the shop, and come to think of it he sure hasn't got 80% of his weight on his front foot. Didn't stop him winning the Aust Masters this year though.
It's "relatively steady head" and we specifically don't mean dead still and steady. Besides, Peter Senior has a "relatively steady head." We filmed him in person at the U.S. Senior Open this year. He's also got 80% of his pressure forward with an iron (less than some, and he extends like crazy, both "early extension" and the normal extension we talk about). Pressure is not the same as weight. "Weight forward" is simplified, though we're considering calling it "Pressure forward" to emphasize ground pressures and whatnot in the next iteration. Same idea, same physics, same teaching concept, just a different (and I would argue more accurate) name. I argued for "pressure forward" before, but was outvoted. :)
Peter Senior Pics (Click to show)
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Originally Posted by
logman Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist.
No it's not.
Sorry for putting it that way, but there's really no other way to put it: it has almost nothing to do with wrist strength, and in many cases, stronger players have a tougher time of this. It has way, way more to do with timing - when the hands accelerate and decelerate, when the core/torso accelerates and decelerates, in what direction they're moving (the hands are pulling UP at impact, not driving down and forward), and so on.
http://thesandtrap.com/t/46448/not-a-bad-impact-position-wife
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Originally Posted by
logman diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key.
The game's best players control their sweet spot path. The game's poorest players do not. It is absolutely a key.
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Originally Posted by
logman Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them.
I don't know who Mr. Wedlick is, but Dave Wedzik, the guy I work with, isn't talking about shaping the ball, and you clearly don't understand what Key #5 is about if you think it's about "shaping the ball" the way you've described it. Key #5 is about understanding the relationship between the clubface and the path in order to produce controlled shots, even if it's the same shot time after time after time.
Key #5 is both knowledge (ball flight laws, a little D-Plane for instructors) mixed with allowing the student to DO THE THINGS to control the clubface and path. EVERY great player controls the clubface relative to the path, every poor player fails to do this well.
To sum up my "problem" with you, logman, it would be that you're criticizing from a position of ignorance. I love criticism. I love it - because it lets me improve most quickly. Who cares if people say "I agree!" That gets me nowhere. If someone can show me how I'm wrong, then that gives me an immediate opportunity to advance my knowledge and understanding.
But you haven't done that. You consistently and seem to willfully fail to not only understand what 5SK is, but also how Mike and I teach. You're critical of a guy who not only likes practicing and playing with his swing, but who went from shooting in the 90s to shooting in the low 70s in a very short span of time. You decide for yourself that something "doesn't matter" or "isn't a key" based on absolutely no real evidence. One of my best friends in golf instruction is John Graham. He's been called "Mr. Contrarian" (I'm Contrarian Junior) because his reaction to everything is to try to contradict it, to find the holes, to find the flaws. That's easier than trying to prove something is right, and it's a great approach to lots of problems, particularly golf. But you aren't doing that. John will back up his contrariness with some actual proof or examples or scenarios. You don't do that. You decide it isn't so and you run with it.
You don't appear to be open to new understandings and you don't appear to be willing to be criticized yourself. You skate through having done no research whatsoever, free (you think) to just ignore the research done by others. You are a hindrance, not someone who furthers the discussion, because your remedial approach to understanding the golf swing does not allow a high level of discussion. You're the slow kid in the back of the classroom who, because he can't multiply, chooses to cover up that fact by making a fuss about how multiplication is stupid and that you'll never have to do it in real life.
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Originally Posted by
billchao
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating that everyone "groove" in their unique swings, flaws and all. If there is no right or wrong in instruction, then why aren't more amateurs improving simply by beating balls around?
As you probably know, amateurs have grooved swings already. Every time, shot after shot, their swings are almost identical. That's why they're bad golfers - because they make bad swing after bad swing. That's why you can identify your buddy from four fairways over just by his swing. They vary swing to swing almost as little as the pros - the pros simply have a BETTER swing.
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Originally Posted by
Harmonious Sorry if I am breaking up the pigpile on logman, but another thing that I see in GOOD golfers is that their weight never gets to the outside of their back foot during the backswing. So many bad players let their weight get to the outside of their back foot (swaying), that it's very difficult to make decent contact.
In fact, I'm a little surprised that it is rarely mentioned as a "key" on the ST. In my opinion, it is more important than a steady head.
That's easy:
1) If your head remains relatively steady, you're going to have a hard time getting your weight outside your feet. You'd have to...
2) If you shift your hips SO MUCH (or setup in a horrible position) that your weight gets outside your feet, then you're going to have trouble with Key #2.
But we never see #2 - Sergio and Monty slide their hips back, but their weight never really gets outside of their feet. They get a little more pressure into their back foot than someone who keeps his hips relatively centered, but that's fine too. Monty and Sergio have the 5SK as well.
