or Connect
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › What do all good ball strikers have in common when they look so different?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What do all good ball strikers have in common when they look so different?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Stretch's my swing thread started getting off topic when discussion turned to several pros who swing differently yet all are successful.  I need to put out the disclaimer that I work with the Golf Evlolution/5SK guys so I have my own ideas. 

 

I would be interested in what others around here have to say. 

post #2 of 28

I think my answers are pretty obvious. They do five things pretty well. :)

post #3 of 28

I would suggest not only do they do five things well, the things they do are quite simple.a1_smile.gif

post #4 of 28

They consistently contact the ball in the center of the clubface. Time after time after time.

post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

They consistently contact the ball in the center of the clubface. Time after time after time.

 

Or close to it.  I can think of three pros currently playing that consistently hit it off the heel-center or toe-center of the club.  Two of which are multi-major winners.  But like you said, whatever they do, they repeat it most of the time.  And I'm not talking about shots that are way off the toe or heel, but even those can happen sometimes.  

 

Back to the OP, yeah five things a1_smile.gif

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

post #6 of 28

It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings

post #7 of 28

I remember a friend of mine, a very good player, was asked how such a small fellow (he's only 5'4") could hit the ball so far and so well.

His reply summed up this topic perfectly, although some may think him immodest:-

 

"Sheer unparalleled ability"

 

 

There is no substitute for sheer athletic ability.  You cannot teach a flat-footed, knock-kneed unathletic softie to play golf (or any other sport) well !!

post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandLaird View Post

I remember a friend of mine, a very good player, was asked how such a small fellow (he's only 5'4") could hit the ball so far and so well.

His reply summed up this topic perfectly, although some may think him immodest:-

 

"Sheer unparalleled ability"

 

 

There is no substitute for sheer athletic ability.  You cannot teach a flat-footed, knock-kneed unathletic softie to play golf (or any other sport) well !!

so THAT's why I'm so crap at this game!!

post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings

 

There are plenty of things that players should NOT do, things that are BETTER than others, that are very clearly RIGHT.

 

No good golfers flip at the ball. No good players have a path that's consistently more than 6 degrees right or about 4 degrees left. No good players fail to get their weight forward, control their clubface, etc.

post #10 of 28

that's a very wide net you're casting there Iacas. Even a cursory look at the swing thoughts and my swings sections will confirm plenty of examples of the bad/good wrong/right school of coaching. The Nick Faldo toe up picture comes to mind. Even your posting on your own swing describing 2 backswing angles and captioning them as wrong and right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reticence to cheer on the 5sk coaching is not that I don't think those things are good. Sure a steady head is a good thing. Is it important?  maybe?. Imperative? obviously not. Peter Senior's head is all over the shop, and come to think of it he sure hasn't got 80% of his weight on his front foot. Didn't stop him winning the Aust Masters this year though.

 

So how important are the "keys"? How relevant are they for Mug punters like me to build a swing? that's got to be the thing. 

 

Steady head: handy, good tip.

Weight forward: IMHO the most important of the 5 but not imperative(senior)

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist. Pro golfers have strong arms and wrists, many, many mug punters don't and will always struggle with what this coaching is asking the wrist to perform. I reckon 80% of women will never have the wrist strength to get to a flat wrist. To these folks number 3 is pie in the sky.

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key.

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them.

 

PS.I don't think this is a personal attack, or somehow disrespectful of Iacas, Mr Wedlick, or MVmac and the other 5sk coaches on here. I just disagree. Sorry the second bit is a bit OT but it kinda led on from Iacas post.

post #11 of 28

I would suggest that Senior is an anomaly, and is highly adapted and skilled at getting himself into the correct position where it matters - through the hitting area. But as it's been said elsewhere by the 5SK guys - the majority of proficient golfers move their heads very little throughout the swing.

 

During the swing the club travels a large distance but the ball is only on the club for a tiny proportion of that - but that's the only place it has to be right. I really think Eric et al have taken the elements of good ball striking down to it's very essence and made it as simple and understandable as it possibly could be in order to give the golfer the best chance to be in the right place at impact.

 

On page 157 of the book "The Swing Factory" there's a gallery showing a number of tour pros just after impact and they are all in identical positions i.e. weight clearly forward, steady head and flat left wrist/hands leading. It's certainly possible to hit a golf ball without these elements but not successfully or with any predictability or consistency which is what we are all after.

post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating that everyone "groove" in their unique swings, flaws and all. If there is no right or wrong in instruction, then why aren't more amateurs improving simply by beating balls around?

I think your argument is flawed, and by using pros that are essentially anomalies, you aren't really proving your point.
post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

 

 

 

Weight forward: IMHO the most important of the 5 but not imperative(senior) Here's the thing,This is going to help you a LOT with the Flat Left Wrist.

 

 

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist. Pro golfers have strong arms and wrists, many, many mug punters don't and will always struggle with what this coaching is asking the wrist to perform. I reckon 80% of women will never have the wrist strength to get to a flat wrist. To these folks number 3 is pie in the sky. I believe that, provided your weight is forward, your wrist does not need to be especially strong, it just needs to be properly educated to be in the right position at impact.

 

 

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key. LOL, then why on earth are you wasting your time trying to do this "every time you hit the golf ball???"

 

 

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them. Aside from the conventional wisdom about straight golf shots, If you cannot control where your clubface is pointing, how do you expect to ever be able to hit a straight golf shot??

 

PS.I don't think this is a personal attack, or somehow disrespectful of Iacas, Mr Wedlick, or MVmac and the other 5sk coaches on here. I just disagree. Sorry the second bit is a bit OT but it kinda led on from Iacas post. I wouldn't classify this as an attack either and to be clear, I'm no pro and probably don't play any better than you do but don't you think you tend to be a little "knee jerk" about this stuff? I mean, going against the flow and all that is great but are you really suggesting that playing with your weight back and a bent (flipped) left wrist with completely random clubface angles is a viable way to learn the game?

post #14 of 28

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

...are all guys who excel at the 5 keys regardless of what their swing 'looks' like.

post #16 of 28

Sorry if I am breaking up the pigpile on logman, but another thing that I see in GOOD golfers is that their weight never gets to the outside of their back foot during the backswing.  So many bad players let their weight get to the outside of their back foot (swaying), that it's very difficult to make decent contact.

 

In fact, I'm a little surprised that it is rarely mentioned as a "key" on the ST. In my opinion, it is more important than a steady head.

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

 

bro, look at all of them at impact and tell us they dont have their weight forward, with a flat left wrist, and are hitting down (forward leaning shaft) with irons...etc...if you dont do these things then you are making the game so much harder for yourself.  if you dont do these things then there are BAD things in your swing.

post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

that's a very wide net you're casting there Iacas. Even a cursory look at the swing thoughts and my swings sections will confirm plenty of examples of the bad/good wrong/right school of coaching.

 

They're right or wrong for those particular students. Combined with the fact that many students have similar swing flaws (flaws you're not going to find in good or great players) and I can see how you might arrive at the thought that there's one pattern.

 

Are there examples (Ray Floyd is a great one) of someone whose takeaway doesn't line up at A2? You bet. I just named one. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of golfers put themselves into a bad spot from which they cannot recover if they roll their forearms like crazy to start their backswings. It's not a matter of "right" versus wrong - and 5SK doesn't mention A2 or where the club should be - but when someone Ray Floyds their takeaway and doesn't do what Ray does from there to the top of the backswing and into the transition, they're screwed because Keys #4 and #5 will be off.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

The Nick Faldo toe up picture comes to mind. Even your posting on your own swing describing 2 backswing angles and captioning them as wrong and right.

 

Toe up isn't wrong (saying that "toe up" is "square" is wrong, but that's another thing entirely. It's just another example of the above: people who roll the face more than often don't recover because they don't make the appropriate compensating moves to control Keys #4 and #5 from a toe-up, early-rotation position.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Sure a steady head is a good thing. Is it important?  maybe?. Imperative? obviously not. Peter Senior's head is all over the shop, and come to think of it he sure hasn't got 80% of his weight on his front foot. Didn't stop him winning the Aust Masters this year though.

 

It's "relatively steady head" and we specifically don't mean dead still and steady. Besides, Peter Senior has a "relatively steady head." We filmed him in person at the U.S. Senior Open this year. He's also got 80% of his pressure forward with an iron (less than some, and he extends like crazy, both "early extension" and the normal extension we talk about). Pressure is not the same as weight. "Weight forward" is simplified, though we're considering calling it "Pressure forward" to emphasize ground pressures and whatnot in the next iteration. Same idea, same physics, same teaching concept, just a different (and I would argue more accurate) name. I argued for "pressure forward" before, but was outvoted. :)

 

Peter Senior Pics (Click to show)

 

1000

1000

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist.

 

No it's not.

 

Sorry for putting it that way, but there's really no other way to put it: it has almost nothing to do with wrist strength, and in many cases, stronger players have a tougher time of this. It has way, way more to do with timing - when the hands accelerate and decelerate, when the core/torso accelerates and decelerates, in what direction they're moving (the hands are pulling UP at impact, not driving down and forward), and so on.

 

http://thesandtrap.com/t/46448/not-a-bad-impact-position-wife

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key.

 

The game's best players control their sweet spot path. The game's poorest players do not. It is absolutely a key.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logman View Post

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them.

 

I don't know who Mr. Wedlick is, but Dave Wedzik, the guy I work with, isn't talking about shaping the ball, and you clearly don't understand what Key #5 is about if you think it's about "shaping the ball" the way you've described it. Key #5 is about understanding the relationship between the clubface and the path in order to produce controlled shots, even if it's the same shot time after time after time.

 

Key #5 is both knowledge (ball flight laws, a little D-Plane for instructors) mixed with allowing the student to DO THE THINGS to control the clubface and path. EVERY great player controls the clubface relative to the path, every poor player fails to do this well.

 

To sum up my "problem" with you, logman, it would be that you're criticizing from a position of ignorance. I love criticism. I love it - because it lets me improve most quickly. Who cares if people say "I agree!" That gets me nowhere. If someone can show me how I'm wrong, then that gives me an immediate opportunity to advance my knowledge and understanding.

 

But you haven't done that. You consistently and seem to willfully fail to not only understand what 5SK is, but also how Mike and I teach. You're critical of a guy who not only likes practicing and playing with his swing, but who went from shooting in the 90s to shooting in the low 70s in a very short span of time. You decide for yourself that something "doesn't matter" or "isn't a key" based on absolutely no real evidence. One of my best friends in golf instruction is John Graham. He's been called "Mr. Contrarian" (I'm Contrarian Junior) because his reaction to everything is to try to contradict it, to find the holes, to find the flaws. That's easier than trying to prove something is right, and it's a great approach to lots of problems, particularly golf. But you aren't doing that. John will back up his contrariness with some actual proof or examples or scenarios. You don't do that. You decide it isn't so and you run with it.

 

You don't appear to be open to new understandings and you don't appear to be willing to be criticized yourself. You skate through having done no research whatsoever, free (you think) to just ignore the research done by others. You are a hindrance, not someone who furthers the discussion, because your remedial approach to understanding the golf swing does not allow a high level of discussion. You're the slow kid in the back of the classroom who, because he can't multiply, chooses to cover up that fact by making a fuss about how multiplication is stupid and that you'll never have to do it in real life.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating that everyone "groove" in their unique swings, flaws and all. If there is no right or wrong in instruction, then why aren't more amateurs improving simply by beating balls around?

 

As you probably know, amateurs have grooved swings already. Every time, shot after shot, their swings are almost identical. That's why they're bad golfers - because they make bad swing after bad swing. That's why you can identify your buddy from four fairways over just by his swing. They vary swing to swing almost as little as the pros - the pros simply have a BETTER swing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

Sorry if I am breaking up the pigpile on logman, but another thing that I see in GOOD golfers is that their weight never gets to the outside of their back foot during the backswing.  So many bad players let their weight get to the outside of their back foot (swaying), that it's very difficult to make decent contact.

 

In fact, I'm a little surprised that it is rarely mentioned as a "key" on the ST. In my opinion, it is more important than a steady head.

 

That's easy:

 

1) If your head remains relatively steady, you're going to have a hard time getting your weight outside your feet. You'd have to...

2) If you shift your hips SO MUCH (or setup in a horrible position) that your weight gets outside your feet, then you're going to have trouble with Key #2.

 

But we never see #2 - Sergio and Monty slide their hips back, but their weight never really gets outside of their feet. They get a little more pressure into their back foot than someone who keeps his hips relatively centered, but that's fine too. Monty and Sergio have the 5SK as well.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Instruction and Playing Tips
TheSandTrap.com › Golf Forum › The Practice Range › Instruction and Playing Tips › What do all good ball strikers have in common when they look so different?