LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[boogielicious]

10 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

I wasn’t offended at all.

 You were the one that said that Phil did nothing to bring about changes. 

Phil did nothing before LIV to try and influence change in the PGAT. He just whined. He offered no ideas at all. That is what is being said. You are misinterpreting posts.

[Hardluckster]

5 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Phil did nothing before LIV to try and influence change in the PGAT. He just whined. He offered no ideas at all. That is what is being said. You are misinterpreting posts.

That is likely true, although I have no actual knowledge of whether he approached committee members or PGAT administration with concerns.  

Had this been the message posted, I would have had no issues with it. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Hardluckster said:

Had this been the message posted, I would have had no issues with it. 

It was. Then you started in on “the Tour wouldn’t have made these changes without LIV.”

Move on from the meta.

[iacas]

I'm not saying that anyone said this, either, but I have seen (elsewhere) the argument that because these changes were made, that means LIV is a good thing. LIV forced the PGA Tour to make changes, the changes are good, ergo LIV is good.

But, no, I don't agree with that, either. Positive changes may have come about (whether they're positive or not is yet to be seen, too), but that doesn't mean the ends justified the means, particularly since the DJs and so on are still going to be on an entirely separate "tour."

[StuM]

I've been stalking this thread for a while and wanted to offer just a few of my thoughts & opinions.

1) I hate the tie to blood money but I can not say with certainty that I would not accept such a large offer as many have been given.  It is "Generational Wealth"  and even if you have a lot of money $100 or $200 million goes a long way to secure a family's comfort for multiple generations, even after taxes.

2) The arguments have ruined pro golf for me this year.  I have not watched a single PGA Event this year.  I am just sick of the constant comments, if not players then commentators.  I understand it is a debate and needs to be had, but it has ruined it for me this year.  OK, begs the question...Why have I been reading this thread?  Answer is I want to know what it going on, just not during a tournament.

3) Some have likened the PGA Tour to other pro sports but there are differences.  For example, A Pro Football (or many other sports) player gets a contract and is paid regardless if they win or not.  I feel that there should be some compensation to all who show and I like the recent addition of the $500k minimum for playing 15 tournaments.  BUT I also like that winning really means something on the PGA Tour.  To think that a LIV player is getting so much guaranteed and can stink up the course does bother me.

4) I'm not sure I agree with a Non-Profit organization (PGA Tour) telling a player with no guaranteed money that they can't play for pay somewhere else.  I understand the players "agreed" to the rules but if they wanted to play in the US then they really did not have much alternative.  I know, Korn Ferry, European/DP, etc. but all on Korn Ferry want to "Graduate" to the PGA Tour and as a rookie on the PGA Tour they would not be in a place to force a change so they would naturally agree.  Yes, the bigger names that moved to LIV could have used their influence but to say "They agreed to the rules" when initially there was not much of a choice it not a valid argument to me.  Most agreed to the rules early in their career.  Now the newly announced $500 minimum does make me reconsider this  since they are now on a contract with guaranteed dollars.

My hope is that this ends and the PGA Tour reigns supreme and I again enjoy watching.

 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, StuM said:

3) Some have likened the PGA Tour to other pro sports but there are differences.  For example, A Pro Football (or many other sports) player gets a contract and is paid regardless if they win or not.

They also have a lot more obligations, can't choose when they want to play, or even practice, can be traded (often) to another team without their consent… etc. Those contracts, as the LIV players now realize, come with more ties and bindings and requirements.

The rest… (honestly, though, like the above) have been rehashed a bunch of times.

Players are "obligated" to agree to the rules… because the PGA Tour is (was?) the biggest, best Tour. Why would they want to play the Korn Ferry Tour? And they can play the DP World Tour, as many players on the PGA Tour have done… including many LIV players who played in Saudi Arabia earlier this year (February, maybe?).

[turtleback]

5 hours ago, Hardluckster said:

Without big name players (like Phil) signing with LIV, I highly doubt that any of these changes occur. I would say absolitely these players have affected changes to the PGAT by signing with the Saudi backed league  

Forcing change in the PGAT most likely wasn’t the reason they signed with LIV. That was most likely money, plain and simple. I would say that it’s possible (maybe even likely) that most of these defectors had issues with some tour policies. 

I don’t disagree with this at all. I don’t think I’ve ever suggested otherwise. 

I think the reality is that we have no idea what, if any, changes to the tour might have happened if Phil had tried to rally support among the other top players.  We don't know because he didn't bother to try.  Maybe I was just unaware, because my interest in pro golf plummets when Tiger is sidelined, but I just don't recall Phil talking about these kinds of things, making proposals, trying to gather support for change among the players.  Until it became the rationalization for taking the blood money.

[Dinglegolf]

Hi there, new poster who was looking for some interesting insights into this topic.

I agree with the majority about the obvious intentions of LIV golf and do not have anything to add.  I am interested though about the dynamics/business end of the PGA Tour in a vacuum and the suggested changes being put forth.  

I personally only make an effort to watch the majors and the Ryder Cup while spending a lot of time on many other tournaments when surfing on a Sunday afternoon.  Personally, the WGC events and the Fedex Cup do nothing for me as a viewer as I am an old school "sports" enthusiast who appreciates uncompromised competition.  

I found the comment by Rory that "the top players do not get together enough" interesting as it is basically saying "the top players do have to get together as much given how much money we make".  I have no issue with players wanting more money and leveraging their star power to do so and do not care to see things as "growing the game" or not. 

I am interested on people's thoughts as to whether the proposed changes are really good for the PGA Tour business-wise. 

Cheers

[Big Lex]

I like all the changes the tour announced it is making. The only disagreement I have is with them not welcoming back LIV players. I think if you truly want the best players in the world in your top tier events, you have to welcome back those LIV players who are in that group. Otherwise you don't have _all_ the best players. Enticing these great players to abandon LIV and return to the PGA Tour also has the effect of driving the proverbial wooden stake into the heart of the beast. 

Even the Prodigal Son was welcomed home 🙂

 

[Dinglegolf]

57 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I like all the changes the tour announced it is making. The only disagreement I have is with them not welcoming back LIV players. I think if you truly want the best players in the world in your top tier events, you have to welcome back those LIV players who are in that group. Otherwise you don't have _all_ the best players. Enticing these great players to abandon LIV and return to the PGA Tour also has the effect of driving the proverbial wooden stake into the heart of the beast. 

Even the Prodigal Son was welcomed home 🙂

 

 

But what if happens if these new "top tier" events fail to generate expected revenues?  

What about if these "top tier" events reduce viewership of the lower tier events and prize money goes down accordingly? 

They maybe shooting themselves in the foot.  

[Darkfrog]

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

The only disagreement I have is with them not welcoming back LIV players. I think if you truly want the best players in the world in your top tier events, you have to welcome back those LIV players who are in that group.

I agree that having all the best players makes for a more compelling product. On the other hand, allowing LIV players back into the PGAT punishes the guys that didn't leave. If all the LIV players who grabbed $30, 40, 50, 100 million dollar payouts are just welcomed back for the sake of having the best players, I bet there would be some pissed off PGAT players wondering what the point of their loyalty was.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

The only disagreement I have is with them not welcoming back LIV players.

Yeah… no.

1 hour ago, Dinglegolf said:

What about if these "top tier" events reduce viewership of the lower tier events and prize money goes down accordingly?

They're non-existent (basically) already.

13 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

I agree that having all the best players makes for a more compelling product. On the other hand, allowing LIV players back into the PGAT punishes the guys that didn't leave.

Yeah. And it's still a player's tour.

[StuM]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

6 hours ago, Big Lex said:

The only disagreement I have is with them not welcoming back LIV players.

Yeah… no.

What if you welcome them back and then schedule all the Elite events to conflict with the LIV Events.  Now you can say "We welcomed them back" ending any anti-trust challenges, but they would not be able to participate in the Elite events because they have contracts with LIV.  I do not think many would want to breach their contract with LIV and risk the consequences of that action.   This is more sarcasm then an actual idea, but what if? 😜

[iacas]

1 hour ago, StuM said:

What if you welcome them back and then schedule all the Elite events to conflict with the LIV Events.  Now you can say "We welcomed them back" ending any anti-trust challenges, but they would not be able to participate in the Elite events because they have contracts with LIV.  I do not think many would want to breach their contract with LIV and risk the consequences of that action.   This is more sarcasm then an actual idea, but what if? 😜

To what end? Now you're scheduling events against theirs, just to try to trap some people who willingly left your Tour? Why? That's just ten levels too far. It does nothing to really HELP the players who are still ON your Tour.

---

Also, this was a pretty good podcast that addresses A LOT from the PGA Tour player's side of things:

NLU Podcast, Episode 594: Keith Mitchell — No Laying Up - Golf Podcast

[Big Lex]

My thought about welcoming back LIV defectors was that it constitutes a real, post-war "reconstruction" of sorts...demonstrates goodwill...ensures the best of the best are all back in one place. 

But yeah, it sort of glosses over the whole "I took $200 million and F-you" thing. It would undermine the loyalty the non-defectors have shown to the tour. I can't see any tour player being ok with LIV'ers coming back. 

It's all really sad...if the Camerons actually jump, we would be losing 2 huge talents in the golf world. Hopefully the announced changes to the PGA Tour will cause some of these rumored soon-to-be defectors to reconsider. 

[turtleback]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Yeah… no.

They're non-existent (basically) already.

Yeah. And it's still a player's tour.

I'd be in favor of letting LIV players back.  On the condition that they pay a fine to the PGAT in the amount of any sign on bonus they received from LIV plus 50% of their cumulative winnings in LIV events.

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I'd be in favor of letting LIV players back.  On the condition that they pay a fine to the PGAT in the amount of any sign on bonus they received from LIV plus 50% of their cumulative winnings in LIV events.

Ha ha.

Plus they have to pay LIV to get out of their contracts.

I assume you weren’t being serious but that ain’t happening.

[Vinsk]

I wonder if these changes have the ‘7 defectors’ to be announced after the FEC some second thoughts?