LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[Friz]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:22 AM, jshots said:

I see that completely differently - the fact that it is taking an insane amount of wealth from the Saudis to be able to establish a different league is evidence that they do have a monopoly. They haven't outright prevented a competitor from operating but are absolutely taking direct action that limits the competitors ability to establish themselves.

It isn't just refusal to help though, they have taken direct action that is limiting competition.

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It literally can't be a monopoly if there is a competing business actively running, which is the only reason this conversation is happening.  It doesn't matter what it took to set the competing business up (was the PGA Tour just supposed to be less successful before to allow easier entry to the market for competition?), the fact that a competing entity is actively operating means there is no monopoly.

And the "direct action" you're referring to is not taking away any player's choice, so how is it limiting competition?  Every single player can make the choice of which place they want to play.  There is no obligation for both to be an option, but the PGA Tour has done nothing at all to eliminate a player's choice to go to LIV.  That is the essence of competition, pick one or the other.  Its not limited, its there in full force.  Just because they can't do both does not mean there is an obstacle to get to LIV

[iacas]

  On 8/12/2022 at 2:04 AM, jshots said:

You are arguing that anti competition practices are a good thing... talk about  worthy comments

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No.

And that you can’t see that…

[Phil McGleno]

  On 8/12/2022 at 2:04 AM, jshots said:

You are arguing that anti competition practices are a good thing..

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Every business should be engaged in legal anti-competitive practices-That is almost the entire point of a business.-Maximize shareholder value, yada yada.

Whatever you are smoking put the pipe down my good man.

[jshots]

  On 8/12/2022 at 2:36 AM, Phil McGleno said:

Every business should be engaged in legal anti-competitive practices-That is almost the entire point of a business.-Maximize shareholder value, yada yada.

Whatever you are smoking put the pipe down my good man.

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It isn't just any old business, it is a business that has near complete control over a particular market and is possibly acting in an anti competitive way toward another business. I get that many of you don't think its anti competitive (although some admit that it is anti-competitive just not illegal), but that is probably going to be the central argument of the lawsuit, whether PGA Tour is acting predatory or not. Check out Radovich v NFL - IMO a lot of parallels to draw, and the NFL lost.

[saevel25]

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:16 AM, jshots said:

It isn't just any old business, it is a business that has near complete control over a particular market and is possibly acting in an anti competitive way toward another business. I get that many of you don't think its anti competitive (although some admit that it is anti-competitive just not illegal), but that is probably going to be the central argument of the lawsuit, whether PGA Tour is acting predatory or not. Check out Radovich v NFL - IMO a lot of parallels to draw, and the NFL lost.

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Wrong. It is not stoping tour players from playing golf. It is not stopping them from joining another tour. The PGA TOUR is not golf. It does not have monopolistic control over the entirety of golfers making money through playing golf tournaments for a living. This is just a very simplistic and incorrect view to think they do. 

[jshots]

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:41 AM, saevel25 said:

Wrong. It is not stoping tour players from playing golf. It is not stopping them from joining another tour. The PGA TOUR is not golf. It does not have monopolistic control over the entirety of golfers making money through playing golf tournaments for a living. This is just a very simplistic and incorrect view to think they do. 

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The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour. So its not just my simplistic view. The simplistic view is thinking this is some black and white non issue for the PGA Tour. 

[saevel25]

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:54 AM, jshots said:

The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour.

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Didn't the LIV tour have a tournament in the USA this year already? 

Why don't the LIV Tour players ask their own tour to set up more tournaments in the USA? 

Unless there is evidence showing the PGA TOUR is actively forcing golf courses to not allow LIV to create tournaments in the USA, then the only fact is that the LIV tour is not doing a good job supporting their golfers who live in the USA by having tournaments over here. 

That is really a half assed argument by those 11 LIV Tour players. 

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:54 AM, jshots said:

The simplistic view is thinking this is some black and white non issue for the PGA Tour. 

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I assume that is your opinion of everyone who doesn't agree with you? 

[jshots]

  On 8/12/2022 at 4:07 AM, saevel25 said:

I assume that is your opinion of everyone who doesn't agree with you? 

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You literally just said that same thing to me. 

[saevel25]

  On 8/12/2022 at 4:15 AM, jshots said:

You literally just said that same thing to me. 

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Yea, that is the point. I was 100% aware of what I was doing 😉

[Aguirre]

The last several pages have been somewhat entertaining to read, but let's not forget the most important point.

LIV is entirely funded by the Saudi government. It's not going to be profitable. It literally can't be, and we all know this. The Saudi government is not Norway, where the sovereign wealth fund is far more likely to benefit its citizens than a specific elite. This is a country of ~35million run by tribal members numbering roughly ~30thousand. They are constructing this league, and getting into bed with WWE, for a specific reason. THIS IS ALL THE INFO THAT IS NEEDED. I'm not interested at all in anti-trust law or anything of that nature. 

You take the blood money, I'm not calling for your prosecution. I've watched Korn Ferry Tour events. Dudes can play better than I can. I'll watch them. Go miss a six foot putt while ZZ Top or some other shit old band plays over the loud speakers at your exhibition.

[boogielicious]

  On 8/11/2022 at 11:31 PM, jshots said:

They've gotten only a handful of top players, I think that number would be significantly higher if it wasn't for the PGA Tour barring players.

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Kind of takes the ’mono’ out of monopoly when your rival tour is getting top players. It’s a rival tour and the players want to be able to play both tours. That’s the ludicrous part. Pick one. I could not have worked for Gillette and for SC Johnson at the same time. And no one in their right mind would have thought I should have been able too. So the PGAT is in fact not a monopoly because the LIV exists. That is the basic point.

If the LIV tour model required making money, then one could argue unfair practices. But it doesn’t. And it’s not the PGAT’s responsibility to help LIV make money. When ATT was broken up, it was because they were controlling the entire market and dictating prices. Splitting them require them to provide infrastructure to aid the new entities. But this case is entirely different because LIV is just spending money of their own with no attempt to be a viable self-sustainable business.

[iacas]

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:54 AM, jshots said:

The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour.

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Except that they've already had two events (Portland, Trump's course), and will have at least one more in Boston… and are having like ten next year in the U.S. Plus, there are multiple other Tours in the U.S., they're just not as big as the PGA Tour.

Once again… is there anywhere else in North America to play "meaningful" hockey besides the NHL/AHL? How about "meaningful" basketball besides the NBA or it's developmental league? "Meaningful" football outside of the NFL? How about baseball?

Your points are bad because your grasp of the facts and logic is bad.

  On 8/12/2022 at 6:47 AM, Aguirre said:

LIV is entirely funded by the Saudi government. It's not going to be profitable. It literally can't be, and we all know this.

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It's an "investment" fund, though, so I would argue that they expect it to be profitable at some point. They don't just spend money from it, they're actively trying to "invest" it to get a return.

I don't believe the "they don't expect to make a profit" angle. Not in the short term, but if it's just going to be a money hole they may just pull the plug at some point in a few years.

[Bucki1968]

Not sure if this information is noted somewhere else on this topic (I've been going back looking but 90+ pages is a lot), I've heard that the prize money is being paid on top of the contracts but have also heard that it's not paid and is counted in the initial payouts? Does anyone know the actual truth? It's funny how all these guys go to LIV and talk about how great it is but no one really says anything about $. I have looked to try to find that info but I don't think anyone really has any of the actual numbers.

[Friz]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:12 PM, Bucki1968 said:

Not sure if this information is noted somewhere else on this topic (I've been going back looking but 90+ pages is a lot), I've heard that the prize money is being paid on top of the contracts but have also heard that it's not paid and is counted in the initial payouts? Does anyone know the actual truth? It's funny how all these guys go to LIV and talk about how great it is but no one really says anything about $. I have looked to try to find that info but I don't think anyone really has any of the actual numbers.

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One of LIV's lawyers stated during the lawsuit that prize money is recouped against their sign on bonus.  LIV later came out and said it was "in addition to."

I dont think there is a clear and obvious answer, theyre stating both and clearly want everyone to believe its additional...but the below article provides a little info on it

 

A statement by a LIV Golf lawyer raised questions about LIV’s prize money | Golf News and Tour Information | Golf Digest

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One of LIV Golf’s lawyers at Tuesday’s temporary restraining order hearing may have accidentally revealed that...

 

[jshots]

  On 8/11/2022 at 6:31 PM, vasaribm said:

Scottie playing mind games...

Scottie Scheffler, Cameron Smith share awkward moment at FedEx St. Jude Championship

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The Rules of Golf are extensive and can be pretty confusing at times.

 

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I bet on Scottie to win this week but looks like he is a bit too riled up.

[dennyjones]

  On 8/12/2022 at 12:43 PM, jshots said:

I bet on Scottie to win this week but looks like he is a bit too riled up.

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I'm sure emotions running high will affect some player's performances. 

[Vinsk]

  On 8/12/2022 at 3:54 AM, jshots said:

The wording I read somewhere from a summary of this lawsuit, was that the 11 LIV players are arguing that they have "No meaningful choice" to play professional golf in the USA besides PGA Tour.

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Gosh. You’re right. $40-100million sign on and $4mil first prize, money won for team placing, and $125k for finishing DFL is just not meaningful so they want to play for both? Seems odd to be fighting to come back to a Tour that has treated them all so poorly. 

[jshots]

  On 8/12/2022 at 1:32 PM, Vinsk said:

Gosh. You’re right. $40-100million sign on and $4mil first prize, money won for team placing, and $125k for finishing DFL is just not meaningful so they want to play for both? Seems odd to be fighting to come back to a Tour that has treated them all so poorly. 

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Playing devils advocate here because I can't comprehend what its like to be a millionaire and want to be a zillionaire - but I think the point is there is no competition in LIV just money. Thus still no meaningful choice to them. LIV can pay but can't provide competition, PGA Tour has the competition but doesn't pay that well. Most PGA Tour players are not making a ton of money, especially compared to other US sports.

Edited August 12, 2022 by jshots