Too Much Sandbagging

[Carl3]

Handicapped skins is even a worse situation IMO. If a 36 handicapper gets a par on a 140 yard par 3, you need to get a hole in one to tie. Shows the weakness of the handicap system. I have never had a hole in one in my life golfing for 40 years. I was in a league like that for 1 season. If you didn't eagle the hole, you would rarely see a skin.

(I did hole out on a 135 yard par 3 with a mulligan and have had three eagles on par 4's from 105 to 140 yards out. I played with an 82 year old at an executive course who had 9 aces in his 15 years playing golf. He barely got the ball airborne and they usually hit the front of the green and rolled off the back. Getting so much roll increased his probability for aces.)

[ncates00]

4 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

This past week-end our club had the annual member-member or as I refer to it, the annual Sandbaggers invitational. I am always amazed every year at the lengths people will go to in order to win shop credit. I have come to the conclusion that I'm no longer going to play in these kinds of tournaments. And if anyone wants to play a nassau on Saturday, we are playing straight up. I love watching a guy come to the 7th hole at even par and going double bogey, double bogey, bogey. But not to worry, his partner (who is a 14 hdc) went par, birdie, par (for net birdie). I don't know why I put my actual scores in the system. I am idiot for doing it. Am I over-reacting? Is it just me?

This is why I don’t care about handicapping. Just play gross score. 

[Shorty]

12 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

This is why I don’t care about handicapping. Just play gross score. 

How can you "just play gross score"? You play gross score in elite professional and amateur events and graded handicap events the rest of the time.

Am I going to claim I've had a win if I, as a 60 year old, have 79 and beat a 75 year old with arthritis who has 85?

Handicaps are what provide a sense of fair competition. They just have to be administered correctly. People who just play with their friends and don't know the rules don't have handicaps. And when they do, they're almost always vanity ones. "I'm about a 5" - means you've never broken 80 in many circles, it seems.

 

[ncates00]

20 minutes ago, Shorty said:

How can you "just play gross score"?

Umm play golf. Enter a score for each hole. Add them up. That is your score. Pretty simple. 
 

If you’re referring to how do you do in these tournaments, then either don’t enter or just go in the gross flight. Plenty of folks do this. Steve Spurrier, former Gators head coach, talks about this all the time. Pretty sure he’s just an am like us too. 
 

As far as “fair” goes, how is gross not fair? We all play by the same rules and the lowest score wins. That’s as fair as it gets. The fact that someone is better than you or me doesn’t make it less fair. I play gross with my friends who are far better than I (plus golfers) frequently. I don’t care if I lose. It’s just golf and I enjoy it. 

24 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Am I going to claim I've had a win if I, as a 60 year old, have 79 and beat a 75 year old with arthritis who has 85?

By definition, yes. You won. 

26 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Am I going to claim I've had a win if I, as a 60 year old, have 79 and beat a 75 year old with arthritis who has 85?

I play against old man par. If I beat others in the process, great. Again, the lowest score wins. I don’t care what the others’ circumstances are—old, blind, deaf, arthritis, young and a strong back, college golfer, female from the front tees, long hitter from the back tees. I don’t care. I play golf and try to shoot the lowest score I can. 

[Shorty]

This is a discussion about people and scoring in competition with and against other people. You rarely have the opportunity to compete against others in purely gross form. All the points you have made are fine but they do not relate to competition with players of varying abilities which the OP is talking about.

[DaveP043]

52 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

This is why I don’t care about handicapping. Just play gross score. 

I'd never say this isn't fair, but playing gross limits the potential for most of the layers to win.  I know at my own club, in a gross event I have very little chance, and I'm off 5 right now.  We just have too many players who are legitimately scratch to 2 or 3 that I have virtually no chance, and I'm in about the top 10% or better of all players.  A guy playing off 10 has no chance.  Zero.  So if you want to limit events to only gross competitions, you get maybe 10% of the turn out that you'd have for a handicapped event.  Handicaps make it possible for just about any player to have a chance.  Properly administered handicaps, that is.

[ncates00]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd never say this isn't fair, but playing gross limits the potential for most of the layers to win.  I know at my own club, in a gross event I have very little chance, and I'm off 5 right now.  We just have too many players who are legitimately scratch to 2 or 3 that I have virtually no chance, and I'm in about the top 10% or better of all players.  A guy playing off 10 has no chance.  Zero.  So if you want to limit events to only gross competitions, you get maybe 10% of the turn out that you'd have for a handicapped event.  Handicaps make it possible for just about any player to have a chance.  Properly administered handicaps, that is.

You make good points about participation. However, I know that I felt much better about winning high school matches (not handicapped) than placing well in club tournaments (often handicapped). I prefer playing straight up, win or lose. Too often folks lie about handicaps, so I don’t give strokes to any one if we’re playing for anything. 

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

You make good points about participation. However, I know that I felt much better about winning high school matches (not handicapped) than placing well in club tournaments (often handicapped). I prefer playing straight up, win or lose. Too often folks lie about handicaps, so I don’t give strokes to any one if we’re playing for anything. 

I guess in some ways I'm really lucky, at my club there's a pretty honest culture around handicapping.  There are always grumblings about this guy or that guy, but when investigated they've always turned out to be insignificant.  But there's an effort made by the Committee as well.  Its like just about anything that's important to get right, it requires effort.  And the effort isn't necessarily required from the nebulous "them", its required from US.

[ncates00]

33 minutes ago, Shorty said:

which the OP is talking about.

Sure it relates. Read above. He said he may not play in these tournaments again. I said don’t play or just do the gross flight. Looks like it relates to me. 
 

34 minutes ago, Shorty said:

players of varying abilities

It’s not my fault or your fault that another has more, or less, ability than another. Lowest score wins (or should win), not the lowest adjusted/net score. 

 

35 minutes ago, Shorty said:

You rarely have the opportunity to compete against others in purely gross form.

You’ve never played in a gross tournament before? Many clubs have a gross flight (some clubs say any one can enter and some will say must be at least a certain handicap) and also the typical handicapped flights. Whenever possible, I do gross. I tend to stay away from handicapped tournaments; too much room for dishonesty. 
 

Also, use the “@“ tag or “quote” function whenever you’re addressing someone. 

[Shorty]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

 

You’ve never played in a gross tournament before?

Once a year in Club Championships or in "open" events and once  a month in graded stroke competitions where there is also a handicap prize.

All of our rounds are competition rounds and medal play is the first Saturday of every month. 

My point is that I couldn't just turn up tomorrow in my club competition and say I'm playing stroke when that isn't the competition. If ever I was playing agains friends of similar ability and it was a non competition round I can see the benefit, of course, but I only ever play competition rounds. 

@ncates00 said: It’s not my fault or your fault that another has more, or less, ability than another. Lowest score wins (or should win), not the lowest adjusted/net score. 

If "Lowest Score Wins" and everyone enjoys competition the game would die out within a generation.

Lowest adjusted score ABSOLUTELY wins in the majority of amateur /weekend golfer /club member competitions.

If someone off 20 has 44 points and I have 38 off 5, I don't win the prize. But the player off 20 may well have been playing to and learning from LSW principles. That's a good thing, surely?

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Shorty

[Colins69]

When I started playing golf I was mid 40s, my older bro by 6 years a 9 marker and he played gross to make me work harder. Took me 3 years to catch him lol, after that we’re just playing golf and winner is decided on the last hole 😂

3 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Once a year in Club Championships or in "open" events and once  a month in graded stroke competitions where there is also a handicap prize.

All of our rounds are competition rounds and medal play is the first Saturday of every month. 

My point is that I couldn't just turn up tomorrow in my club competition and say I'm playing stroke when that isn't the competition. If ever I was playing agains friends of similar ability and it was a non competition round I can see the benefit, of course, but I only ever play competition rounds. 

Yeah I think Aus golf is better setup than NZ golf, I’m a member at Paraparaumu golf club which people say is one of the best. I was a member at Liverpool Sydney which I think is better because it doesn’t have links style rough, but think I’m going to Waikanae golf club because I lose too many balls lol...

[ncates00]

35 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Lowest adjusted score ABSOLUTELY wins in the majority of amateur /weekend golfer /club member competitions.

Sure. I know that’s true, but, like the OP points out, dishonesty is rampant. Which is why some of us just play gross, just as the OP is contemplating. 

[GolfLug]

8 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Sure. I know that’s true, but, like the OP points out, dishonesty is rampant. Which is why some of us just play gross, just as the OP is contemplating. 

The problem is not with handicapping.

I think dishonesty is rampant only where allowed. At our cc/league dishonesty is addressed head on. There is serious shame points attached to it. One better be prepared to play alone. 

Some cc/leagues/circles chose not to care enough to address it...IMO that's wherein lies the issue. 

I will concede that random net events where folks from all over enter yield silly net scores. Those seem rife with thieves. I played in three VSGA net events with 100 + entries and there were 4 net scores in upper 50s. But nobody cares about the winner and the prize is a $30 shop credit. Whatever..

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Sure. I know that’s true, but, like the OP points out, dishonesty is rampant. Which is why some of us just play gross, just as the OP is contemplating. 

Dishonesty is nowhere near as "rampant" as you seem to think, no.

Vanity handicapping is 10x the issue of sandbagging.

What's your GHIN, Nathan?

[StuM]

4 hours ago, Carl3 said:

Handicapped skins is even a worse situation IMO. If a 36 handicapper gets a par on a 140 yard par 3, you need to get a hole in one to tie. Shows the weakness of the handicap system. I have never had a hole in one in my life golfing for 40 years. I was in a league like that for 1 season. If you didn't eagle the hole, you would rarely see a skin.

(I did hole out on a 135 yard par 3 with a mulligan and have had three eagles on par 4's from 105 to 140 yards out. I played with an 82 year old at an executive course who had 9 aces in his 15 years playing golf. He barely got the ball airborne and they usually hit the front of the green and rolled off the back. Getting so much roll increased his probability for aces.)

Our league does HC Skins all the time. First, we do two flights to limit the example of needing a hole in one you listed above.  Second, the HC used is exclusively from our league scores so no chance to fudge the HC.

 

[ncates00]

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Dishonesty is nowhere near as "rampant" as you seem to think, no.

I’m not immune to being wrong. Maybe you’re right. 
 

 

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Vanity handicapping is 10x the issue of sandbagging.

Only to that person’s ego. Well, I guess also in some way to the tournament and the other players if their ego causes slow play, but we’ve seen on tour folks who had no business being there, so it is what it is. 

 

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

What's your GHIN

Not sure how this is relevant, but Hell if I know. Expired. Left my club I was previously a member. Used The Grint for a while, but then it became a paid service, and I went back to school. Got busy. I haven’t played much in the last several years. Trying to get back into it. If I can make more time for golf, I’ll renew and let you know. If I posted this, I’d probably gotten a warning for being off topic or points for trolling haha. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by ncates00

[billchao]

5 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Only to that person’s ego. Well, I guess also in some way to the tournament and the other players if their ego causes slow play, but we’ve seen on tour folks who had no business being there, so it is what it is. 

I think what @iacas is saying is that there are 10x more vanity cappers than sandbaggers.

[ncates00]

Just now, billchao said:

I think what @iacas is saying is that there are 10x more vanity cappers than sandbaggers.

Ah. You’re both probably right then. 

When he said “worse,” I thought he meant of degree not amount.