Student (College) Loans

[boogielicious]

9 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Right now, there's a huge demand for welders. 

You can expect to start around $60K. But an experienced welder with proper certs can earn $200K per year. 

And machinist. A supplier I worked with started an apprentice program for machinists. They would go into high schools to recruit. A friend of mine did the same with his company. 
 

If you want to be a chemical engineer though, you still have to go to a 4 year program and it’s getting out of hand for tuition costs. I think the other issue is the interest rates on financial loans for college. They push you into the loan companies that have 8% rates when mortgage rates were 3%. It’s kind of a racket.

[iacas]

Just now, Elmer said:

That is literally what unemployment insurance is for. 

Way to gloss over almost everything, including the italicized.

[Elmer]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Way to gloss over almost everything, including the italicized.

"It was a payroll loan. He didn't just keep the money. It went to everyone else who would have been out of work due to something they couldn't control and over which they had no choice at all."

once again UI is for those who have lost their employment due to no fault of their own.  Except the employer pays for the UI charges. So instead he can take a tax payer loan and avoid charges to his account. 
So if we complain about tax funded forgiveness, I think this is a valid point!

[iacas]

@Elmer, my post contained five separate sections, all responses to you. You've chosen to partially respond to a portion of that.

7 minutes ago, Elmer said:

So instead he can take a tax payer loan and avoid charges to his account.

They'd just close the business. The global pandemic was not the type of thing UI is set up to handle.

7 minutes ago, Elmer said:

So if we complain about tax funded forgiveness, I think this is a valid point!

I don't.

[ChetlovesMer]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

And machinist. A supplier I worked with started an apprentice program for machinists. They would go into high schools to recruit.

I visited a customer today that had an open rec for a machinist for more than 2 months with zero applicants. Finally, they started training the just out of highschool kid who was originally hired for janitorial duties. My guy there shrugged and said "Hey, he shows up." 

[Jeremie Boop]

3 hours ago, Elmer said:

"It was a payroll loan. He didn't just keep the money. It went to everyone else who would have been out of work due to something they couldn't control and over which they had no choice at all."

once again UI is for those who have lost their employment due to no fault of their own.  Except the employer pays for the UI charges. So instead he can take a tax payer loan and avoid charges to his account. 
So if we complain about tax funded forgiveness, I think this is a valid point!

Except, didn't the Payroll protection thing allow them to keep people on the payroll. Full pay and benefits? Whereas unemployment pays a percentage of the wages and they have no benefits? I could be wrong, but if not it seems like that was a much better solution for employees than unemployment is. I didn't have to deal with any of that, thankfully. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jeremie Boop

[StuM]

8 hours ago, Elmer said:

A single semester of college can cost $20,000 per semester. If the student needs to cover housing and meals, they may need to take out a personal loan. Alot of these loans have elevated interest rate.
My neighbor's kid went to medical school and got their doctorate. In the 15 years since graduating they have paid off $120,000 on their $120,000+ loan and still owe $120,000.
It is the interest rate that is burying them.

Taxpayers have bailed out the auto industry , airline, banks,  etc....., and I don't recall that any of these industries drastically changed. The bail out was during tough economic times to keep the business afloat, employees working and lessen the economic impact. 
What is wrong with providing the same support to those who are in debt and are part of the workforce.
The amount of money not going to pay loans will likely go back into the economic and hopefully provide a boost.
I do not see why we punish people who chose to educate themselves, but because of their economic status had to take out what ever loan they could get. And because of this they spend a lifetime paying off the interest that is incurred!

My idea on limiting loans based on earnings is separate from offering a reprieve to those with current debt, it is to stop repeating the problem.

if the “value” of the degree is insufficient to justify the cost then the school should lower the cost or the student can choose to pay the extra but not expect taxpayer bail out. Or get a degree that can cover the cost.

Would a mortgage lender lend 2 or 3 times the value of a home?

Also, room & board are optional since most can go to a local college.  If they choose to live on that is their choice, not a requirement.  There are many good colleges out there.

Edited September 3, 2022 by StuM
Added last paragraph

[iacas]

6 hours ago, StuM said:

if the “value” of the degree is insufficient to justify the cost then the school should lower the cost

School is more than "the degree" and you continue to ignore the many obvious loopholes or issues with this.

Nobody's forcing students to go to college, nor are they forcing people to go into certain programs or get certain degrees.

[ChetlovesMer]

5 hours ago, StuM said:

Also, room & board are optional since most can go to a local college.  If they choose to live on that is their choice, not a requirement.  There are many good colleges out there.

To this point, Stu, I foresee completely on-line universities becoming more and more of a thing in the future. I remember back in the early 90's I would have been hesitant to hire somebody who listed Phoenix University on his or her resume'. Today I wouldn't pause at all. 

I truly believe that all on-line universities or possibly even stripped-down universities will be a big part of future higher education. Think of it this way, since I left my particular university in 92, that university has built a state-of-the-art Student Life Building, a multi-billion dollar state-of-the-art golf center with an 18 hole golf course, and specialized practice course (which is really cool by-the-way, but only about 40-50 students a year ever get to set foot in it.), A state-of-the-art Student Diversity-Equity-Inclusion Building, 2 new fitness centers, A Swimming and Diving Center, A Gymnastics Center, An additional pool and aquatic center, and a couple of other buildings I'm sure I'm forgetting. Plus, they have multiple non-teaching professors on salary who do nothing but research. Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT saying any of these things are bad things. I think all of these things are cool. But they are all expensive as well. What if somebody wants higher education but doesn't want to pay for all those extras? 
 

What I'm saying is it seems like there's a market for a very stripped down version of higher education. It would be an only what you need version. Your brick and mortar could be any of the hundreds of abandon strip malls across the country. You could meet there periodically and then meet on-line the rest of the time. It would have teaching professionals, instead of research professors. It would be a different experience from what we know today as the traditional university experience. It would be like buying a base-model Chevy Cavalier instead of the top of the line Cadillac. I think there would be a market for people who want a college degree but perhaps don't need or don't want or can't afford the college experience. 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

School is more than "the degree" and you continue to ignore the many obvious loopholes or issues with this.

Nobody's forcing students to go to college, nor are they forcing people to go into certain programs or get certain degrees.

I acknowledged issues but there are always issues and that does not mean they can’t be figured out or that we should not try to figure them out. 

You are correct, nobody is forcing them to go so why should my tax dollars pay for their choice?

I am ok with some taxpayer support, but support relative to value, not an open checkbook.

 

 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

To this point, Stu, I foresee completely on-line universities becoming more and more of a thing in the future. I remember back in the early 90's I would have been hesitant to hire somebody who listed Phoenix University on his or her resume'. Today I wouldn't pause at all. 

I truly believe that all on-line universities or possibly even stripped-down universities will be a big part of future higher education. Think of it this way, since I left my particular university in 92, that university has built a state-of-the-art Student Life Building, a multi-billion dollar state-of-the-art golf center with an 18 hole golf course, and specialized practice course (which is really cool by-the-way, but only about 40-50 students a year ever get to set foot in it.), A state-of-the-art Student Diversity-Equity-Inclusion Building, 2 new fitness centers, A Swimming and Diving Center, A Gymnastics Center, An additional pool and aquatic center, and a couple of other buildings I'm sure I'm forgetting. Plus, they have multiple non-teaching professors on salary who do nothing but research. Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT saying any of these things are bad things. I think all of these things are cool. But they are all expensive as well. What if somebody wants higher education but doesn't want to pay for all those extras? 
 

What I'm saying is it seems like there's a market for a very stripped down version of higher education. It would be an only what you need version. Your brick and mortar could be any of the hundreds of abandon strip malls across the country. You could meet there periodically and then meet on-line the rest of the time. It would have teaching professionals, instead of research professors. It would be a different experience from what we know today as the traditional university experience. It would be like buying a base-model Chevy Cavalier instead of the top of the line Cadillac. I think there would be a market for people who want a college degree but perhaps don't need or don't want or can't afford the college experience. 

Many good points. 

[colin007]

16 hours ago, jmanbooyaa said:

Why not go to community college first 2 years, same education you will get in that 2 years as other colleges. After that make an informed decision 

I tell all of my students at school to do this

[saevel25]

10 hours ago, StuM said:

if the “value” of the degree is insufficient to justify the cost then the school should lower the cost or the student can choose to pay the extra but not expect taxpayer bail out. Or get a degree that can cover the cost.

Would a mortgage lender lend 2 or 3 times the value of a home?

You will get the home you got a loan for. You are not guarantee to even get the job you get your major in. 
 

 

[TourSpoon]

High school dual enrollment for a welding cert is hot in our county now. Plus our HS auto tech programs partner with major brands and kids can graduate high school making 45-60k their first year.  
 

Adult CDL for trucking is also on fire with drivers making 60-100. 

We also have community colleges that are very affordable. Not everyone needs to go big school experience. 
 

As far as 20k a semester, the average Florida in state tuition with room and board is 20k for the year. Add the high school AICE (Cambridge) diploma and the “Bright Futures” scholarship picks up tuition and books and a hustling student can do it for 10 or less. Wait tables or bartend and you are set. 

 

 

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

High school dual enrollment for a welding cert is hot in our county now. Plus our HS auto tech programs partner with major brands and kids can graduate high school making 45-60k their first year.  
 

Adult CDL for trucking is also on fire with drivers making 60-100. 

We also have community colleges that are very affordable. Not everyone needs to go big school experience. 

That is good to hear. With how expensive manufacturing equipment is. If you like to work with your hands, learn welding and other trades. You can make a good living that way. Especially if you just do not think college is something for you. 

[TourSpoon]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

That is good to hear. With how expensive manufacturing equipment is. If you like to work with your hands, learn welding and other trades. You can make a good living that way. Especially if you just do not think college is something for you. 

Honestly, if you are smart and willing to hustle in the trades, you can make a s-ton of money by opening your own business. I met a guy the other day who has a 2,500 foot house with pool, tiki bar and boat dock. He has a small boat at his house, one at the marina, and a ton of toys. I asked him what he does and he tells me he cuts grass.  I think he has a few hundred accounts and 7 crews. My other friend, the auto mechanic lives next to my attorney buddy on the water. He just sold his 10 bay shop. 
 

My point being, learn a trade or be an accountant (or whatever) and if you become an entrepreneur the sky is the limit. 

Whether you do college or a trade choose wisely! 

Now answer this. Why can an 18 year old get a student loan but gets denied when trying to open a business? 
 

 

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

Now answer this. Why can an 18 year old get a student loan but gets denied when trying to open a business?

What is the odds of having a successful business? 

Bars and restaurants, 1 in 3 fail. 

With that, 18% of businesses fail with in their 1st year. 

Imagine, you are a bank that lends out money. 

1) you can give out student loans where you are always going to collect a guaranteed rate of return because the loans can not be gotten rid of. 

2) you give out a business loan and 20% of them fail and that person probably is going through bankruptcy. You probably end up getting a fraction back of what you lent out. 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, TourSpoon said:

I asked him what he does and he tells me he cuts grass.

I bet he doesn't cut grass himself anymore.  He runs a successful business.  Grass cutting in Florida, kind of a given.  Tell him not to try it in Michigan...