Cap Patrol - Handicap Evaluation

[DeadMan]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

"Golfers playing in a normal number of events (defined as eight during a two-year period) should place first no more than once and may have one other high finish, such as fourth place, in that eight-event span. Anything beyond that is not statistically reasonable."

Just because, it will be detrimental to those who are improving their golf game. What if someone starts a year off playing at a 15 handicap. Works their butt off, and constantly improves, dropping to a 5 handicap over the next two years. If they play in tournaments, their handicap should go down, but it will not catch up to the rate they are improving, and they could very likely finish high in a lot of tournaments. Maybe the program will flag it and an adjustment would be made.

This is why human judgment is important in this process. From reading the article, it sounds like this is not an automatic adjustment and the handicap committee still needs to review it.

That said, if someone loses that many strokes on their handicap and is still winning a lot of tournaments as a 5, they probably still need an adjustment. The handicap system is not built to reflect quick improvement like that. 

[phan52]

I hate sandbaggers but I don't think this system catches the ones who are proficient at it. We tried it out last year on a trial basis but didn't follow up this season. After hearing the original presentation, it appeared to me that it was started by a scratch or low handicapper who just doesn't like to give strokes and is frustrated with the handicap system as a whole.

We track who plays and get very aggressive when players don't post their scores. Not much you can do about the guys who post "honey-do" scores when, say, they are playing with their spouse but, if it is a competition of any kind, the golf staff posts the scores. And those of us who play for money, well, if we tolerate the sandbaggers, that's on us. We know who they are. 

[mohearn]

5 hours ago, phan52 said:

. And those of us who play for money, well, if we tolerate the sandbaggers, that's on us. We know who they are. 

Yeah, I hear you there. I can't avoid it in league, but it affects calcutta bets, so that's something I have to be careful with. 

[Layton-III]

I am member at 2 clubs that use Cappatrol and while I am happy that it has helped the handicap committee ensure that rounds played are posted (through sync with the tee time systems) and data backed approach for appropriately modifying handicaps of individuals who are outside of the statistical norm.   I would caution any club from investing in the product.   I have had 4 minor issues that I have reached out to support and never received a response.  Recently had a major issue preventing me from using the app and no response from support on that either.   In discussions with professional staff and handicap committee folks from multiple clubs, they also acknowledge that the company is very difficult to get support from post purchase.   

[mcanadiens]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:37 AM, bkuehn1952 said:

It appears one of the primary goals of Cap Patrol is to give cover to the Handicap Committee if they take action against an alleged sand bagger.

Seems to me that this is probably the most appropriate use of this software. 

Most clubs probably have a fairly good idea already who their sandbaggers are. Based on the number of ways a sandbagger could cheat the system, you still need some human analysis of the situation. If the software flags the sandbagger, it can certainly make the initial conversation easier and give the committee a bit more ammunition in dealing with it.

 

[StuM]

I guess the part I am missing is that the official GHIN handicap uses the best 8 of the last 20 rounds.  For most of us what we golfed 2 years ago is  long gone from the calculations and if a golfer, as noted in one prior comment, worked thier butt off and lowered their HCP to 5 I would venture a guess the older rounds had dropped off and clearly he is not sandbagging. 

I do agree, trying to catch non-reporting of rounds or posting a lot of high scores to push some lower scores out of the recent 20 needs to be flagged.

FYI: I am not personally posting to GHIN this year but I am not competing for money and do not play in club tournaments so it should not impact anyone.  I do have a league HCP but that is league only rounds, similar to all other golfers on the league.

 

[Layton-III]

On 7/21/2023 at 10:14 AM, StuM said:

I guess the part I am missing is that the official GHIN handicap uses the best 8 of the last 20 rounds.  For most of us what we golfed 2 years ago is  long gone from the calculations and if a golfer, as noted in one prior comment, worked thier butt off and lowered their HCP to 5 I would venture a guess the older rounds had dropped off and clearly he is not sandbagging. 

I do agree, trying to catch non-reporting of rounds or posting a lot of high scores to push some lower scores out of the recent 20 needs to be flagged.

FYI: I am not personally posting to GHIN this year but I am not competing for money and do not play in club tournaments so it should not impact anyone.  I do have a league HCP but that is league only rounds, similar to all other golfers on the league.

 

Ok,  there is no way that you can work your butt off and lower your handicap by even 4 strokes without posting more than 20 rounds.   If your improving in scoring, your playing golf - not 9 hole match play once a week or 4 man scrambles with your buds,  or range rat it 5 days a week.   During an entire golf season,  a most improved golfer handicap would look something like...

6.9 to 3.7

9.3 to 6.2

14.3 to 9.7

32.5 - 25.6

25.3 - 20.8

By the way those player improvements are most improved at a few different "real clubs" and they all played north of 60 rounds with one at 134.   

[billchao]

4 hours ago, Layton-III said:

Ok,  there is no way that you can work your butt off and lower your handicap by even 4 strokes without posting more than 20 rounds.

You’re not serious, right? I’m a 13.4 in my most recent revision. I was as high as 17.4 on June 16th. My 20 round revision scores date back to May 28th.

Not only did I lower my index by four strokes in fewer than 20 rounds, I’ve done it mostly in the past month. My last seven rounds have all counted towards my index.  It would have been all eight in a row but one round I couldn’t post because it was a solo round.

[iacas]

Does anyone know what this costs? Annually or monthly?

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Does anyone know what this costs? Annually or monthly?

Perhaps @jsgolfer can find out, he said his club uses it.  Separately, I wonder if the Administrative side of Ghun will begin to include some of these features.  Appendix D here:

https://www.scga.org/pdfs/2024 Rules of Handicapping (V1).pdf

certainly seems to indicate a number of tools which I have never encountered previously.

[bkuehn1952]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, DaveP043 said:

... Separately, I wonder if the Administrative side of Ghun will begin to include some of these features.  Appendix D here:

https://www.scga.org/pdfs/2024 Rules of Handicapping (V1).pdf

certainly seems to indicate a number of tools which I have never encountered previously.

I agree that these type of reports are not available in the GHIN Admin. site (I just looked). I imagine a spreadsheet expert might be able to create something but I don't see our club using anything that is not on the shelf already.

[jsgolfer]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, DaveP043 said:

Perhaps @jsgolfer can find out, he said his club uses it.  Separately, I wonder if the Administrative side of Ghun will begin to include some of these features.  Appendix D here:

https://www.scga.org/pdfs/2024 Rules of Handicapping (V1).pdf

certainly seems to indicate a number of tools which I have never encountered previously.

I'll see if I can find out the cost, I do know that one of our players (who went to Scotland with us Dave) got knocked down 3 strokes through the CAP patrol.

[jsgolfer]

Cost is somewhere in the 2-3K, depending on the number of golfers that you are tracking.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, jsgolfer said:

Cost is somewhere in the 2-3K, depending on the number of golfers that you are tracking.

Thanks Jerry.

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

I'll see if I can find out the cost, I do know that one of our players (who went to Scotland with us Dave) got knocked down 3 strokes through the CAP patrol.

I KNEW I never had a fair chance!!  Actually, I think I came out about even in the betting, maybe just a bit under, but I played pretty bad the first few rounds.

[jsgolfer]

16 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I KNEW I never had a fair chance!!  Actually, I think I came out about even in the betting, maybe just a bit under, but I played pretty bad the first few rounds.

And it wasn't the bandit.

[klaugh]

On 5/10/2023 at 12:04 PM, DeadMan said:

This is why human judgment is important in this process. From reading the article, it sounds like this is not an automatic adjustment and the handicap committee still needs to review it.

That said, if someone loses that many strokes on their handicap and is still winning a lot of tournaments as a 5, they probably still need an adjustment. The handicap system is not built to reflect quick improvement like that. 

 

USGA Rules say if you modify an index it has to be 1 or more points. So if Cap Patrol says to modify .5 or .9 the index will not change.

Cap Patrol is based on performance in net events. Once you accumulate ~7 TPS points or more in a two year period your index is going to be scrutinized more so than if you have less than 7 TPS points. Your possible modification is based on the cap score the program comes up with using the following: Current Index, High & Low index from last 12 months, last 5 posted home & away scores, your Potential Index (competiton scores, last 2 years or last 20 C scores and your TPS points based on where you finished in select net events at your club. It's complicated, not 100% perfect but its better than doing nothing, it works.

The key data that seems to drive a modification are the difference between your current index and your Low Handicap Index and your Potential index. When you have had 'success' in the past two years, when your current index jumps 2 or more points over your LHI or your potential, then you might receive a modification to your current index. Remember, your demonstrated ablity may or MAY NOT be your current index. USGA uses LHI as a key measure of your demonstrated ability, thus the hard cap and soft cap at 5 pts and 3 points over your LHI. Cap Patrol digs deeper by looking at where players finish in events, something GHIN does not account for.

And USGA is making changes to GHIN in 2024, they are going to finally make suggestions to player indexes base on 'irregularities' is scores posted. 

[bkuehn1952]

$2,000 - $3,000 sounds like a lot of money when an active Handicap Committee can do the same thing. I think I will ask for a raise at the next Board meeting. 😉