Is a Fade Actually Easier to Control Than a Draw?

[Seeking70s]

I was watching a Titleist YouTube video about shaping shots which featured Jordan Spieth and his thoughts on a “controlled fade.”

In golf commentary you often hear the idea that fades are easier to control than draws.

Is there any objective reason why this is the case? Or is it yet another example of a golf truism with little evidence?

The curvature of the ball is dictated by swing path and face alignment. I am struggling to understand the real reason why it should be easier to keep that relationship in check in one orientation versus another.

 

[colin007]

58 minutes ago, Seeking70s said:

I was watching a Titleist YouTube video about shaping shots which featured Jordan Spieth and his thoughts on a “controlled fade.”

In golf commentary you often hear the idea that fades are easier to control than draws.

Is there any objective reason why this is the case? Or is it yet another example of a golf truism with little evidence?

The curvature of the ball is dictated by swing path and face alignment. I am struggling to understand the real reason why it should be easier to keep that relationship in check in one orientation versus another.

 

All things being equal- spin rate, ball speed, etc. - them the spin axis being tilted left or right would have no effect on "control'

[saevel25]

Depends on the person. 

[JetFan1983]

In general it depends on the player, of course. We should all play to our tendencies and not try to hit shots we’re not good at hitting.

Here’s the video the OP is referring to though, for everyone reading the thread:

In Spieth’s case specifically, he palmar flexes his lead wrist, holds the face off, rotates his body a lot, and then swings slightly left, which produces a fade. This is how he’s trained himself to swing over many years, so there’s not much for him to think about when he does it. A lot of tour pros swing this way: Koepka, Dustin Johnson, Cam Smith, etc. With minimal face rotation and a shut face, start lines and curve are more predictable for these guys I guess. Trevino also speaks of a fade like this and oddly enough, swings with a bowed lead wrist and low rate of closure.

Other considerations here are their equipment biases which would facilitate certain ball flights as a result of their swing patterns. Many of them have shafts that flex in a way that make fading it easier or more difficult for them, so this would influence their opinion on which ball flight is easier to control.

[p1n9183]

Normally if you play a draw over a fade, you are going to play a shot that have less spin and lower ball flight just because you have less dynamic loft at impact (if all the other variables remains equal). Of course you can play a high draw with lots of spin, but if you can do that you can also play a fade with the same club that is going to go higher and with more spin. That is just physics, more dynamic loft equals more launch angle and more spin.  

So, a higher and with more spin shot is more controllable after landing in the ground. Is normally going to roll a lot less so the ending result is more predictable. The dispersion of the shot on the air is going to be exactly the same but the dispersion of the shot after landing is going to be bigger with the draw.

With the same concept you can also say that is preferable to have a right miss (for a right handed player) over a left miss. That's because left miss is the result of a face that is more close than intended what promotes a lower ball flight an less spin resulting in more roll after lading. Instead a miss right will be with a more open face than intended, so more spin and higher launch angle, resulting in a soft lading a little to no roll.   

 

[saevel25]

33 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

Normally if you play a draw over a fade, you are going to play a shot that have less spin and lower ball flight just because you have less dynamic loft at impact (if all the other variables remains equal).

In order of launch angle

Push Fade
Push Draw
Pull Fade
Pull Draw

Hard to tell which one will spin more or less because of a lot of variables. It probably changes pending if your hitting driver or irons. 

35 minutes ago, p1n9183 said:

So, a higher and with more spin shot is more controllable after landing in the ground. Is normally going to roll a lot less so the ending result is more predictable. The dispersion of the shot on the air is going to be exactly the same but the dispersion of the shot after landing is going to be bigger with the draw.

I disagree. A higher shot may have a wider shot dispersion pending green conditions and weather conditions. Rory tends to struggle in windy conditions, probably because he hits it so high and struggles to flight his ball lower. 

Generally, I do not think you would see significant difference in on the PGA Tour between those who fade or those who draw the ball. They all hit the ball with enough height and spin to not worry about roll out. 

Generally, amateurs just do not get enough height or spin overall. Regardless of what ball flight they play. 

I think this discussion is talking about something that is negligible. 

[iacas]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:55 PM, p1n9183 said:

Normally if you play a draw over a fade, you are going to play a shot that have less spin and lower ball flight just because you have less dynamic loft at impact (if all the other variables remains equal). Of course you can play a high draw with lots of spin, but if you can do that you can also play a fade with the same club that is going to go higher and with more spin. That is just physics, more dynamic loft equals more launch angle and more spin.  

Lot of assumptions there.

Pull-fades often go lower, with less spin, and can go farther than a push-draw.

[Vinsk]

I’ve learned to control my push shank pretty well. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I’ve learned to control my push shank pretty well. 

And once you master the pull shank you’ll be on tour.

[GolfLug]

On 7/17/2023 at 12:11 PM, Seeking70s said:

The curvature of the ball is dictated by swing path and face alignment. I am struggling to understand the real reason why it should be easier to keep that relationship in check in one orientation versus another.

 

I've always thought that this debate of the consistency of the fade vs. draw ball flight was always in relation to execution and not about the physics of launch/spin. For example a Texas wedge is generally easier to execute and produces more consistent result than a chip. 

Is it easier to become good at hitting fades vs. draws? IDK honestly but gotta be an individualistic thing. 

I can tell you that there is nothing I hate more than a double crossed pull-hook in an attempt to hit a 'controlled' fade. 

[Pretzel]

When I hit a draw it actually usually has a noticeably higher ballflight than when I hit a fade. Part of this is that I like to hit a push draw, the other part is that with the way I swing for each of them a draw usually results in a more shallow angle of attack compared to when I'm hitting a fade (most of my fades are a straight fade or pull fade). The only time I hit what could be considered a straight draw or a pull draw is if I'm really trying to hook the ball around a corner, which means pretty much every draw I hit has both more dynamic loft (clubface is more open) and a higher launch angle (more dynamic loft, mentioned earlier, + a more shallow AoA). 

I think one big reason fades feel more controllable to many is familiarity, in that the vast majority of players have at one point in their golfing career had an over-the-top motion they had to fix. A slice is by far the most common unwanted ballflight, and most good golfers have at one point in their past successfully corrected a ballflight like that to get to the point of becoming a good golfer. They know what to do if the ball starts fading too much. Uncontrollable hooks are much less common than the OTT slice, at least in my experience (which is not from the perspective of an instructor), and thus fewer golfers who have progressed to being good or great have gone through the process of dealing with it and being comfortable knowing how to correct it. 

I do admit I could be entirely wrong though, because honestly it's a wild-ass guess that most people are more familiar with fades and slices than they are with hooking the ball. Could also be that opening the face on a fade and slicing still gets the ball up in the air and moving, whereas closing the face on a draw can have harsher consequences of the ball not flying very far. Could also just entirely be a bunch of old "common knowledge" folklore that has zero basis in reality and it's all just placebo effect and personal preference.

[billchao]

10 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

When I hit a draw it actually usually has a noticeably higher ballflight than when I hit a fade. Part of this is that I like to hit a push draw, the other part is that with the way I swing for each of them a draw usually results in a more shallow angle of attack compared to when I'm hitting a fade (most of my fades are a straight fade or pull fade). The only time I hit what could be considered a straight draw or a pull draw is if I'm really trying to hook the ball around a corner, which means pretty much every draw I hit has both more dynamic loft (clubface is more open) and a higher launch angle (more dynamic loft, mentioned earlier, + a more shallow AoA). 

In terms of how it is for each individual, it depends on their movement pattern. I play basically a straight fade (0.7°R FTT) with a shallow AoA (-2.68° with a 7i). I like to swing my hands in so my path is pretty much always left. A draw is a harder shot for me to produce with that pattern unless it’s a pull.

16 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Could also just entirely be a bunch of old "common knowledge" folklore that has zero basis in reality and it's all just placebo effect and personal preference.

In terms of golf announcers claiming a fade is more controllable, I think it’s this.

[Pretzel]

10 minutes ago, billchao said:

In terms of how it is for each individual, it depends on their movement pattern. I play basically a straight fade (0.7°R FTT) with a shallow AoA (-2.68° with a 7i). I like to swing my hands in so my path is pretty much always left. A draw is a harder shot for me to produce with that pattern unless it’s a pull.

Definitely, and a lot of it probably has to do with how someone might alter their swing to hit a draw vs a fade. My "feel" for them is mainly adjusted by moving my ball position forwards or backwards, then setting up and gripping the club so the face feels/looks square to my intended start line when placed behind the ball. The main thing this does is just moves my shoulders to be more open or closed at address, and then I just feel like I swing along my shoulders. The further apart my shoulders feel compared to my feet/hips the more curve my shot will have, hence the push draw and pull fade. 

Another "opposite" way of thinking about it is to set up with the same ball position and/or shoulder angle at address each time and just adjust the face angle to get a draw or a fade, which gives straight/push fades and straight/pull draws. The same thing is happening, you're creating a mismatch between the face angle and the swing path, it's just starting from the opposite side of the equation (face angle instead of swing path) to get there.