Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, Alfonso said:

  In the context of my statement regarding putting, it is in relation to similar ball striking skills,  Thus, the ability to score ultimately ends with the putter. 

Well most of the time, the hole ends with a tap-in so the ability to score must depend on that part of the putting skill. So, tap-ins are king of golf. 😉

[Denny Bang Bang]

44 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Well most of the time, the hole ends with a tap-in so the ability to score must depend on that part of the putting skill. So, tap-ins are king of golf. 😉

But when my 58 is hot, I’ll get some chip ins.  So really the 58 is king.

 I mean, Happy discovered holing out from 400 with a driver is easier than putting… so?

[StuM]

4 hours ago, Alfonso said:

And in this particular discussion, the emphasis seems to be placed on the professional game.  Of course those players are superior ball strikers.  I didn't need Broadies work to tell me that.

Not correct.  The data shows that for both pros & amateurs the “Separation Value” of putting in less than for other parts of the game.

eliminate 1 OB off the tee and that quickly lowers a score by 2 strokes.

no matter how good a putter you may become you will rarely if ever 1-putt every hole.  Getting a GIR to have a birdie putt is always better than needing to sink a putt to save par no matter how good of a putter you are.

get a Shot Scope, Arcoss or any other shot tracker that measure Strokes Gained and you will see where you are gaining or losing the most strokes.  And Strokes Gained can, and has been, applied to golfers at all levels.

Any given round can have varied results but over many rounds you will see a pattern and putting will not be where you can gain the most strokes.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

The data shows

This is where you lose @Alfonso. And it’s fine to just admit you don’t understand the math/statistics. I don’t get a vast majority of that. But when you couple that with pure stubbornness…learning is impossible.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

If you  run into a hot putter, it's trouble.

Like I said, I'll take a guy who makes every par, bogey, and double bogey putt he looks at any day of the week.

The annoying ones are the ones who constantly have good looks at birdie.

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

he does admit that is the formula for winning amongst ball strikers of similar talent.

You just keep skipping right over that part.

The "hottest putter" at the RBC Heritage finished T41.

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

Thus, the ability to score ultimately ends with the putter.

It "ends" with the putter because, like @phillyk said, most holes end with a tap-in. Tour players tap in 9 times per round, on average, and so do you.

But the putting has the least Separation Value® of all the skills.

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

And in this particular discussion, the emphasis seems to be placed on the professional game.

I have linked to and shown you several times amateur data. So, no.

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

The ability to physically putt the ball is relatively easy for most.  It's the skill of getting the ball in the hole that is difficult.

Far less difficult. Which is why there's less Separation Value® there.

6 hours ago, Alfonso said:

And once you are on the green, one has the opportunity to turn two strokes into one (the hot putter).  Doesn't happen very often that can be done from the fairway.

Bullshit.

Hit the green and you turn four shots into three with a chance to turn it into two.

This act of yours got old several days ago.

[Vinsk]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:27 AM, Alfonso said:

That's also why I said putting is king, as it almost always is the last shot you hit on a hole, and can make up for mistakes made with prior shots.

No. Do you how often a tour pro on average makes a 7’ putt? Making a 15’ putt is not going to become something you can rely on to ‘make up for mistakes made with prior shots.’ Reducing those prior mistakes is a much more feasible and productive way to improve your score….thus putting is NOT king. 
 

If you consistently hit your drive into trouble, or flub your approach shots…even if you have Tour level putting, you’re not going to score very well. Nobody cares that you make your 8’ putt 80% of the time for DB. Why can’t you seem to get this?

[iacas]

@Alfonso is taking a short (forced) break so he can read over the many posts he's ignored the past few days.

[DrMetal]

In his book, Broadie states that for downhill puts, your target should be beyond the hole.

Do you guys agree with this?  When putting downhill, if you set your target beyond the hole, is there no concern you may hit well past it, leaving you a lengthy 2nd put?

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, DrMetal said:

In his book, Broadie states that for downhill puts, your target should be beyond the hole.

Do you guys agree with this?  When putting downhill, if you set your target beyond the hole, is there no concern you may hit well past it, leaving you a lengthy 2nd put?

IIRC, he's not talking about where you have to feel you aim, he's talking about where you actually need to try to stop the ball.

[Brock]

Lou, the data analytics guy on twitter, posted a while back that winner of PGA tour events are in top 5 putting 39% of the time and in top 5 approach about 39% of the time. 

[DrMetal]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

IIRC, he's not talking about where you have to feel you aim, he's talking about where you actually need to try to stop the ball.

Ok. But if you're trying to stop the ball past the hole, on a downhill putt, there's certainly a danger in going past it too much, no?

[klineka]

7 hours ago, DrMetal said:

Ok. But if you're trying to stop the ball past the hole, on a downhill putt, there's certainly a danger in going past it too much, no?

But if you're trying to drip the ball over the front lip, there's certainly a danger in leaving it too short, no?

[StuM]

8 hours ago, DrMetal said:

Ok. But if you're trying to stop the ball past the hole, on a downhill putt, there's certainly a danger in going past it too much, no?

Yes, if you hit with too much speed you could go too far past, the idea is to only go a short way past the hole.  The general idea is that 100% of short putts NEVER go in.  If you hit with speed to stop the ball a short distance past the hole and you are on line the ball will drop and if you are off-line then a short up-hill putt should be easy.    

[DrMetal]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

Yes, if you hit with too much speed you could go too far past, the idea is to only go a short way past the hole.  The general idea is that 100% of short putts NEVER go in.  If you hit with speed to stop the ball a short distance past the hole and you are on line the ball will drop and if you are off-line then a short up-hill putt should be easy.    

Makes sense, thank you.