Relative Importance of Driving/Approach Shots, Short Game, Putting, etc. (LSW, Mark Broadie, Strokes Gained, etc.)

[Club Rat]

Quote:

A 15 handicapper like me will spray their drive more than occasionally probably miss the green in regulation, chip up and hope to one putt for par. So short game is important to me - I need to get the ball on the green (with practice get it somewhat close to pin). I say short game is most important to me. A single digit player makes more 3 and 4 footers, hits more greens in regulation because of longer drives that land in fairway.

???????  Short game is more important  ????

I suggest finding a Par 3 course and play it until you can shoot below you handicap.

This will sharpen your short iron / wedge play and putting skills.

Once you have confidence in this aspect of your game, you should then see if you can maintain a lower handicap?

You will still have difficulties due to lack of improvements in your long game !!!!!!!!!

The game requires a player to preform every single aspect, tee shot, approach, play around the green and putting skills.

And, it don't come easy...........

Club Rat

[birlyshirly]

Here's maybe another way of looking at the problem.

I'm not claiming to be an outstanding ballstriker - but I've still had plenty rounds where I've hit 11, 12 or more GIR. I still haven't come close to shooting par or better - and I STILL don't think my short game is wholly to blame.

Too many of my approach shots - even where they find the green - are too far away for even a pro to EXPECT to 2 putt. And too many of my missed greens leave me facing the sort of recovery shot that you rarely witness on TV.

An awful lot of the impressive short game stats that you see on tour come from hitting simple chips from the fringe.

[Robster 7]

Too many of my approach shots - even where they find the green - are too far away for even a pro to EXPECT to 2 putt. And too many of my missed greens leave me facing the sort of recovery shot that you rarely witness on TV.

An awful lot of the impressive short game stats that you see on tour come from hitting simple chips from the fringe.

Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lampost, for support rather than for illumination!

[birlyshirly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

Here's maybe another way of looking at the problem.

I'm not claiming to be an outstanding ballstriker - but I've still had plenty rounds where I've hit 11, 12 or more GIR. I still haven't come close to shooting par or better - and I STILL don't think my short game is wholly to blame.

Too many of my approach shots - even where they find the green - are too far away for even a pro to EXPECT to 2 putt. And too many of my missed greens leave me facing the sort of recovery shot that you rarely witness on TV.

An awful lot of the impressive short game stats that you see on tour come from hitting simple chips from the fringe.

Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lampost, for support rather than for illumination!

And a jolly old trope that is!

Still not sure what you're saying though with regards to my post. I'm not saying that the stats prove anything. Quite the reverse, that they're wide open to interpretation and hidden context.

[saevel25]

Here's maybe another way of looking at the problem.

I'm not claiming to be an outstanding ballstriker - but I've still had plenty rounds where I've hit 11, 12 or more GIR. I still haven't come close to shooting par or better - and I STILL don't think my short game is wholly to blame.

Too many of my approach shots - even where they find the green - are too far away for even a pro to EXPECT to 2 putt. And too many of my missed greens leave me facing the sort of recovery shot that you rarely witness on TV.

An awful lot of the impressive short game stats that you see on tour come from hitting simple chips from the fringe.

Its because GIR is a horrible stat when talking about ball striking. Ball striking is about proximity to the hole. The reason that pros score better is because they put the ball with in 15' and are very good at making putts inside of 15'.

[birlyshirly]

Its because GIR is a horrible stat when talking about ball striking. Ball striking is about proximity to the hole. The reason that pros score better is because they put the ball with in 15' and are very good at making putts inside of 15'.

Absolutely. That's exactly the point that I was trying to illustrate - but from the point of view of an average ballstriker having one of his better ballstriking days. I can match the GIR performance of much better players and still not score as well. And it's STILL not a short game issue.

[wils5150]

Its because GIR is a horrible stat when talking about ball striking. Ball striking is about proximity to the hole. The reason that pros score better is because they put the ball with in 15' and are very good at making putts inside of 15'.

Not sure I agree the gir is a horrible stat.

[David in FL]

Not sure I agree the gir is a horrible stat.

I agree.

To be clear, I'm not a stats guy at all.....but for me, it's the only stat that I really look at.  I find that it correlates directly to my score.

[saevel25]

I agree.

To be clear, I'm not a stats guy at all.....but for me, it's the only stat that I really look at.  I find that it correlates directly to my score.

The reason I say it is a bad stat is, what happens if your aiming to hit a cut to a pin placement on the right, but you pull draw it a bit and end up 60' away from the pin on the left edge of the green. It is a GIR, but was it a good ball strike, not really. So yes GIRs is a decent metric to determine overall score, but it isn't a metric for ball striking.

[Spitfisher]

Not sure I agree the gir is a horrible stat.

I agree, I think its valuable for us,  perhaps a little less value for pros where distance from the hole is better utilized.

[Mr. Desmond]

I agree.

To be clear, I'm not a stats guy at all.....but for me, it's the only stat that I really look at.  I find that it correlates directly to my score.

Agree -

For me, if I've got a high % of GIR, I've at least given myself a chance at a score.

[bkuehn1952]

Its because GIR is a horrible stat when talking about ball striking. Ball striking is about proximity to the hole. The reason that pros score better is because they put the ball with in 15' and are very good at making putts inside of 15'.

In 2013 the best average proximity to the hole on approach shots was 31 feet, 3 inches (Jim Furyk).  To be sure, he had a lot of shots within 15 feet or less but not nearly as often as I might have guessed.

I think GIR for the average or above average amateur golfer is an excellent predictor of scoring.  L.J. Riccio, PhD (a frequent contributor to Golf Digest) did a statistical analysis of amateur goflers and found GIR to have a strong relationship to scoring.  Perhaps once one gets into the realm of + handicaps the data is not as valid.  Also, there are going to be amateur outliers who rarely hit a green and score wonderfully and others that hit lots of greens and don't seem to get the job done.  On average, however, GIR is usually tied to scoring pretty closely.

[saevel25]

Yea, but that proximity might be 31 feet right of the green in the rough. Proximity does not equal GIR.

[Spitfisher]

Here's maybe another way of looking at the problem.

I'm not claiming to be an outstanding ballstriker - but I've still had plenty rounds where I've hit 11, 12 or more GIR. I still haven't come close to shooting par or better - and I STILL don't think my short game is wholly to blame.

Too many of my approach shots - even where they find the green - are too far away for even a pro to EXPECT to 2 putt. And too many of my missed greens leave me facing the sort of recovery shot that you rarely witness on TV.

An awful lot of the impressive short game stats that you see on tour come from hitting simple chips from the fringe.

If you want more accuracy to the pin and better scores, here are two tips. Before taking a swing to a green look at where the pin is. There are A) Ok pins, B) difficult pins and C) sucker pins- decide which one you are shooting at and avoid shooting at B and C, next what ever club you think you should be using, swallow your pride and use a stronger club, maybe choking down a half inch and swing at 80%-the swing should feel  fluid and not forced. The ball will go straighter, better contact,a little further and land softer. The biggest difference from a 20 handicap and a low single digit handicapper on approach shots is low handicappers hit the ball beyond the hole, the high handicappers do not use enough club and often leave the shot short. why is this so bad? think about it.... 1) traps and water are typically in the front or front R and L- rarely in back. 2) greens typically slope back to front as does the fringe &  fairway in the front of the green typically is sloped towards the golfer both which prevents the ball from releasing forward for a steep decent angle for higher handicappers.  3) ask yourself, especially if you are familiar with the course " where do I want to miss?" and "where do I want to putt from" before hitting your shot.

Trust me you'll hit better quality shots AND closer to the hole for more likely 2 putts

[David in FL]

The reason I say it is a bad stat is, what happens if your aiming to hit a cut to a pin placement on the right, but you pull draw it a bit and end up 60' away from the pin on the left edge of the green. It is a GIR, but was it a good ball strike, not really. So yes GIRs is a decent metric to determine overall score, but it isn't a metric for ball striking.

That tends to even out though......for us mere mortals, we're as likely to be aiming for the fat part of the green and miss so badly that it ends up close .   Your abnormally long putt is still statistically better than short-siding yourself and missing the green.  So even in that scenario, your GIR is going to average out to a lower overall score than the miss.

The mistake too many amateurs make is to "take dead aim" (damn you Harvey Penick) when all they should be doing is trying to put the ball on the middle of the putting surface.  For the average guy.....IGNORE the pin and aim for the center of the green on approach shots, and watch the improvement in scoring.

[Robster 7]

I'm saying I agree with you....sorry for any confusion!

[Robster 7]

The location of the pin determines whether I hit past it or not? But yes, you definitely see higher handicaps leave themselves short of the green regularly where all the trouble is.

[iacas]

Yea, but that proximity might be 31 feet right of the green in the rough. Proximity does not equal GIR.

They correlate very highly, though, and they tend to even out. GIR is still a valid statistic, and one of the more useful ones, because the anomalies tend to balance out.

And strong correlation doesn't mean proximity is useless, either. Proximity is particularly useful when both players, for example, hit 12 GIR. One could have had a much better ball striking day by putting the ball 10' closer, greatly improving his putting odds. He could have gained more strokes with his long game despite losing strokes with his putting game to shoot a better score.