Tee Restrictions by Handicap

[Mugs050]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

Actually, he might take less time per shot. Lots more higher handicaps just walk up to the ball take a swish then hit, lower handicaps tend to take more time to setup a shot and execute it. It seems about the same time in total on average.

The fastest players I know are the mid cappers (8-12), we don't anguish over every single shot and putt. We also get to the greens as quickly as any low handicap, but without the anguishing part. So, the premise of the thread doesn't fit us.

The ones that take forever are the clueless ones. Generally speaking, lower handicaps are not clueless, but there are many higher handicaps who play just as fast or faster.

I think it's experience more than skill that makes a player faster or slower.

This is bang on. Except I find that there is a correlation between skill level and being clueless. Meaning if you hold a better handicap, you typically play more and have learned the rules better like keeping pace. I don't think you can restrict tee times for higher handicaps because golf needs the revenue and can't be discoursing new players and casual players. However marshals need to be more assertive and their needs to be more education given on the first tee by a starter. They should explain the basics of pace of play bringing clubs with you to the ball, driving the cart ahead and maxing out after double par or picking up your ball. They should also explain when to allow faster groups to play through and when not to. This would make it funnier for everyone involved.

 

[Dave2512]

3 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

That's not real world, only in the perfect world of everyone playing ready golf, no one taking practice swings or taking more than 15 seconds to read a putt would you consistently find that a low handicap golfer is faster than a high handicap golfer.  

Using your logic no one should be allowed to walk the course during peak times because, assuming golfers with equal shot routines, the golfers who walk the course are likely to be slower than someone that rides.  

That's not why courses recommend tees for handicap. It's not a shot routine thing, it's not an attempt to curb bad habits and it's not an a measure to equalize everyone. They simply understand shortening the course means it will play less difficult and the amateurs golfer's propensity to mishit will be less penal. If nothing but the tee box changes every shot is closer to the hole by whatever that difference is.

 

10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

When you make the statement that you are not good enough to play so and so tees, it gets people defensive. It's saying you're not good enough to play from those tees.

I never said that, you won't find it in any post I made.

[Lihu]

52 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

That's not why courses recommend tees for handicap. It's not a shot routine thing, it's not an attempt to curb bad habits and it's not an a measure to equalize everyone. They simply understand shortening the course means it will play less difficult and the amateurs golfer's propensity to mishit will be less penal. If nothing but the tee box changes every shot is closer to the hole by whatever that difference is.

 

I never said that, you won't find it in any post I made.

That was not what I was trying to say. I was trying to indicate that the courses would essentially be stating that by enforcing handicap rules on what tees to play. It's like saying you suck at golf so you need to play up.

Although, that is what you seem to be implying in many of your posts. Not explicitly, but enough to get some people "ruffled".

So, imagine if someone comes to the course and simply wants to play with their buddies who are lower handicaps, but this one person's handicap indicates that he needs to be playing from the junior tees or something like that? That would completely uproot the one reason he came to play. I would just assume let that person play along his buddies and hack his way to the green as long as he doesn't hold up the pace of play. I just played someone who hacked his way from the blue tees the other day, and it wasn't a big deal. He kept up pace, and abandoned balls when appropriate to speed things up. He was enjoying himself because the weather was nice and he was able to talk to the rest of us. He was a great partner duffs and all. I'm possibly just not serious enough about golf to make someone's round miserable by forcing him to play the forward tees, but my reasoning is to let someone have fun the way they want.

It would be like forcing someone to use only his PW or nothing longer than a 9i on the driving range because he's a 36 handicap or something like that.

[Dave2512]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

That was not what I was trying to say. I was trying to indicate that the courses would essentially be stating that by enforcing handicap rules on what tees to play. It's like saying you suck at golf so you need to play up.

However it's not like it wouldn't be true. If par is the benchmark and score is our personal measure we don't need courses to tell us we suck. I think that damn near every frickin' time I hit a shot knowing it's making par more difficult as I wind around the course.

The courses just want golfers to pay and finish with the least amount of management as possible. Every time tee threads come up it generates a lot of varied responses. FWIW the only courses here that do it have true championship length tees with many in between. It's not a 10 yards between blue and white thing. It's courses with 7500 yd gold tees and 6100 yd whites. The oblivious aren't one tee too far back they're three tees too far back.

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

That's not why courses recommend tees for handicap. It's not a shot routine thing, it's not an attempt to curb bad habits and it's not an a measure to equalize everyone. They simply understand shortening the course means it will play less difficult and the amateurs golfer's propensity to mishit will be less penal. If nothing but the tee box changes every shot is closer to the hole by whatever that difference is.

I get what you're saying and I guess if you shorten the course for everyone the theory is people would play faster overall just because you've reduced the amount of real estate they have to traverse.    

[Dave2512]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

I get what you're saying and I guess if you shorten the course for everyone the theory is people would play faster overall just because you've reduced the amount of real estate they have to traverse.    

I think the idea is it minimizes mistakes. Getting golfers closer to the hole means hitting shorter clubs all over the course.

[phillyk]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

Here's a course that still does not enforce playing shorter tees, but they only recommend playing the shorter tees for enjoyment rather than telling a golfer that they don't have the skill to play the back tees. The nickname was "Tierra Tooharda" at one point in time. . .

http://www.tierrarejadagolf.com/

It's better not to "dare" people into paying too far back by stating that only low handicaps can play so and so tees. Just advertise the fun aspects of playing where people feel more comfortable.

To be honest, I don't usually advocate based on handicap.  I advocate based on carry distance.  On those few holes I was talking about, I'll ask how far they can carry their driver and then suggest what tee box would be good to clear the hazards.  But as we know, handicap and carry distance are somewhat related.  I agree that advocating based on handicap only makes them want to move back to try and prove me wrong.

[JonMA1]

I didn't vote because I disagree with both choices. Yes, playing longer tees increases playing time on average - but that goes for low cappers as well. At the same time, as many other high handicappers have posted, an inability to score low does not automatically make you slow - even with the extra shots.

A compromise would be to enforce tee restrictions during peak hours. As a high capper, I could go along with that so long as I knew about it beforehand.

I can't speak for others, but when the course is crowded, I don't look long (if at all) for lost balls, nor do I play from longer tees.  I hit a provisional if there's a reasonable chance I lost a ball. And I'm not above taking a drop and two strokes if I haven't done that. I promise there are few twosomes in a cart that can keep up with me walking when I want to play this way. The opposite is almost always the case. 

Now when I have the course to myself, that's a different story. I might play one set of tees further back, or spend more than a minute looking for a ball. I might decide to play the round with my vintage clubs, keep stats on my phone.... things I wouldn't do if the course were busy.

The point is, different situations call for different type of golf, for me anyway. So to put a rule in place across the board would cause patrons like myself to play elsewhere. While that might be better for low cappers, it's not so good for keeping the courses open.

[newtogolf]

8 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I didn't vote because I disagree with both choices. Yes, playing longer tees increases playing time on average - but that goes for low cappers as well. At the same time, as many other high handicappers have posted, an inability to score low does not automatically make you slow - even with the extra shots.

A compromise would be to enforce tee restrictions during peak hours. As a high capper, I could go along with that so long as I knew about it beforehand.

I can't speak for others, but when the course is crowded, I don't look long (if at all) for lost balls, nor do I play from longer tees.  I hit a provisional if there's a reasonable chance I lost a ball. And I'm not above taking a drop and two strokes if I haven't done that. I promise there are few twosomes in a cart that can keep up with me walking when I want to play this way. The opposite is almost always the case. 

Now when I have the course to myself, that's a different story. I might play one set of tees further back, or spend more than a minute looking for a ball. I might decide to play the round with my vintage clubs, keep stats on my phone.... things I wouldn't do if the course were busy.

The point is, different situations call for different type of golf, for me anyway. So to put a rule in place across the board would cause patrons like myself to play elsewhere. While that might be better for low cappers, it's not so good for keeping the courses open.

i would think some discount should be offered if you mandate a golfer play from shorter tees based on handicap.  If a course is turning away paying customers then they might be willing to alienate some customers but I don't see this going over well when put into practice.  Also how do you enforce it once they are passed the 1st tee?  

[Hardspoon]

I think it is good when starters suggest a tee box, but I don't see why it should be mandated. Why focus on one potential cause of slow play, when it is easy enough to monitor and police the actual item of concern (pace of play)?

I couldn't care less what tee box my playing partners are using, as long as they keep the pace.

If a course can't afford marshals to monitor pace, who is going to enforce the tee box rule after the first tee?

(I didn't vote, because neither of the answers describes my opinion)

[Dave2512]

I've never seen it mandated just suggested. I have seen rangers have golfers skip a hole or get to a spot they should be if they fall behind. I guess you have to see it to respect it but I can't imagine why anyone would not heed the suggestions at the courses I've seen it posted at. It's not a f-it we'll play blues not whites decision. The tees at these courses are as much as 90 yards apart.

This is my former home course. Scorecard is in the golf tab (should be right in the link). You wouldn't show up here, see the handicap recommendation for whatever tees they say suit you and ignore it and head for something else. If you are accustomed to playing X yards it would make sense. It's a PSA not a court order.

http://www.toddcreekgolfclub.com/rates/

 

[DrvFrShow]

Right, in league play, I could be painful. In my flight I was always in the run for the $50 prize every week. So I'd take extra time lining up a shot, or lining up a putt. I won it 7 times during the summer. So pbbtt. I'm taking the extra time. And I also know how to cheat it, too, if you put me on the clock - walk slower when approaching my ball to get a better look. The women hated the extra time. We'd still keep up barely but it was the other women who were picking up the slack. I was throwing off their tempo. It wasn't the same as a practice round or casual round. Put money on the line, and I play slower. Score means something then. Casual round, score means nothing,

*****

But here's a novel idea. Speeding up play and playing from shorter tees. The average golfer doesn't carry a handicap. Forget the stats that the USGA has for the "average golfer." Their average golfer is made up of card carrying members. I'm not even a card carrying member at the moment because 1) I'm not playing in a league. 2) I don't play in tournaments. So I don't have an official handicap anymore. The average golfer struggles to break 100. 

The player who struggles to break 100 should tee it forward 5800 - 6000 yds and leave the damned driver in the bag. Even leave the 3 wood in the bag - they probably get a decent shot 1 out of 10 times anyway. Play every hole for bogey. Use the 6 iron off the tee. Use the 7 iron or shorter on the fairway or rough. Chances are the ball won't land in serious trouble. The worst they'll score on a hole is a DB. Keep practicing with the driver on the range and when you can finally control it start using it on the course. The course will still be a challenge. The only thing missing will be a ton of penalties and lost balls.

[DaveP043]

I voted yes, and I think it can be a positive influence on pace of play.  I believe that, in general, playing a shorter course will allow a faster pace of play.  I don't think this should apply to every course, nor should it apply to most private clubs.  Many, perhaps most public courses aren't excessively long, even from the back markers, and in many cases the yardage difference isn't huge.  Consequently, I don't see a significant reason to force players in those situations to play a specific tee. Most private clubs have other ways to handle slow play issues, so that removes the reason to require specific tees there.  But in a few instances, at a few public facilities, the back tees should be reserved for only the very best players.   

 One that comes to mind is Pinehurst #2.  I've played here a few times, at least once from the "Blue Tees".  I'm a decent player. but I still struggle with the greens and surrounding contours.  There's not a huge amount of trouble  But I've been here for the US Opens, and I know where the REAL back tees are, and virtually nobody should ever consider playing from there.  A couple of them are actually  Having said that, if they actually put markers on those real back tees, there would be a sizable percentage of idiots who would want to test themselves on "the course that the pros really play."  And I guarantee that it would play even slower than it already does.

I'm also reminded of my visits to Scotland and Ireland.  As I remember, most of the courses had one set of tees for men, and one for women.  If you wanted to play the back tees, you either needed to be a member, or get special permission.  I hope some of our members from the British Isles can let me know if my memory is correct.

[Dave2512]

Yep the course here that hosted a Web.com event back when it was the whatever tour doesn't put markers on the back tees. The boxes that are visible have closed plaques on them discouraging people from trying it. Personally I don't get the allure of overly difficult golf.

My guess is why it doesn't resonate with members here is most play appropriate tees or the back at the courses they play isn't ridiculously long. I recall a few years ago a similar thread and eventually learning the tips for some of the members offering resistance were just over 6k.

Typically when I see goobers back on championship length tees it's not guys that adhere to ROG, keep a handicap or give a crap about anything other than using the course as their personal amusement park. When I've been behind them, before I run them over  playing through, they typically just drop balls all over the course as they lose them. Being oblivious doesn't end with laughable tee choices the same guys wait for greens to clear on 325 yd par 4's and every par 5. For these types if courses really could enforce a tee box rule I'd say cough up your ghin at check-in or be assigned to the whites or equivalent.

[sjduffers]

I voted yes, but it's not a blanket statement: it really depends.

On some course I am very comfortable playing from the tips, even though I have to use hybrids and fairway woods on the par 3s and on approach for quite a few par 4s, but on other courses, I feel like playing from the white tees is stretching it... But, yes the notion that a foursome should be allowed to play from the back because a single guy in the group can easily do it and the 3 other guys struggle like mad from there, is not what I consider a good time, for them... or for me behind them.  However, this just happened again last time I played.

[tdiii]

I took 3 30+ handicappers out to my course this past weekend.  I'm no stick as my profile discloses, but better than they are.  We played the forward (not the ladies') tees, 5,950 yards.  They played very quickly, particularly on the greens, were great about cart management and ready golf; basically, they did all the right things.  I also play quickly -- never take practice swings (except on short game shots) and putt very quickly (I've played with maybe one person in my life who played quicker). 

We have a pace of play policy to play under 4:30.  We were not held up, finished the front nine in 2:10, but the 18 in 4:30 on the nose with no break at the turn -- our back 9 is just quite a bit harder than the front.  They scored 97, 102, and 110 (generously). 

The point is that very quick but poor players are hard-pressed to meet minimal time standards.  If they had played the blue (our green tees at 6,440 yards) or black tees at 6,940 yards, they never could have done it.  And they were moving. 

Throw one group on a busy course with one or two guys who are not diligent about pace of play and playing off the wrong tees, and you have a 5:00 + round on your hands. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by tdiii

[JonMA1]

5 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

The player who struggles to break 100 should tee it forward 5800 - 6000 yds and leave the damned driver in the bag. Even leave the 3 wood in the bag - they probably get a decent shot 1 out of 10 times anyway. Play every hole for bogey. Use the 6 iron off the tee. Use the 7 iron or shorter on the fairway or rough. Chances are the ball won't land in serious trouble. The worst they'll score on a hole is a DB. Keep practicing with the driver on the range and when you can finally control it start using it on the course. The course will still be a challenge. The only thing missing will be a ton of penalties and lost balls.

Sadly, I still need the driver to play 6000 yard courses. But I get your point. Most 5800 - 6000 yard courses offer plenty of challenge for someone of my skill level and even those are better, I'd suspect. Especially if the course is more difficult than average.

[Fourputt]

While I agree with the consensus that slow play is mostly caused by slow players, regardless of any other factors, I still have reservations about high handicap players hitting from the tips.  

No matter how you stuff it, even the worst hacker is more likely to hit a GIR from 100 yards than he is from 170 yards.  If not a GIR, then he is likely to have a shorter chip.  That will result directly in fewer strokes and a short time on the hole.  

That assumes that the ball is at least marginally playable off the tee shot.  Even if not the same theory still applies.  If he hacks a 200 yard drive from the 440 tee and puts it in deep rough, then he's still 240 away, and at least 2-3 shots from reaching the area around the green - he has zero chance of reaching the green.  If he plays from the 350 yard tee, he's only 150 out after the bad tee shot, and he has a chance, however slight, to get near the green in one more.

I understand that there are a lot of variables in any such formula, but the generalities apply.  Shorter takes less time if all else is equal.