Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Palmer started as a pro near the end of Hogan's career. Good point about Snead and Nelson and Thomson and  Locke as Open Champion specialists but the key point is the depth of the field. Jack had Arnie, Casper, Watson, Player, Floyd, Trevino, Miller and Seve in his time and Tiger has had Phil, Singh, Goosen, McIlroy and Els.

Thomson and Locke were British Open specialists at a time when Americans dominated top level golf and almost none of them went over to play the British Open.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MSchott

It's been said in this thread that it's hard to compare among different eras and that's true. But this thread once again, is about comparing Jack and Tiger so none of that matters. And in the last 40-50 years, winning majors has been the metric. Arnie started the modern major talk, Jack ran with it and Tiger measures Jack's record.

Yup, when you cannot counter an argument, rule it out of bounds.

Originally Posted by Spitfisher

18 is jacks number, but 19 is also another number for jack 19 second places and 53 is another number, that's jacks top 10 finishes in majors. My point is if you use majors as the bench mark, something I subscribe to, Tiger may very well get 20 wins but if level of finishes drops off, then I would still give the edge to jack based on his wins, 2nd and top ten finishes

And there it is in full display, the fallback position for the Tiger detractors.

[boogielicious]

Here is the list of most PGA tour wins.  For Ben Hogan to surpass the three above him, he would need a significant factor in his favor.  Snead was his peer and won more tournaments.  If you go by winning %, Woods has Hogan beat.

Rank	Name	Lifespan	Country	Wins	Majors	Winning span	Span (years)
1	Sam Snead	1912–2002	United States	82	7	1936–1965	30
2	Tiger Woods	1975–	United States	79	14	1996–2013	18
3	Jack Nicklaus	1940–	United States	73	18	1962–1986	25
4	Ben Hogan	1912–1997	United States	64	9	1938–1959	22
5	Arnold Palmer	1929–	United States	62	7	1955–1973	19
6	Byron Nelson	1912–2006	United States	52	5	1935–1951	17
7	Billy Casper	1931–	United States	51	3	1956–1975	20
8	Walter Hagen	1892–1969	United States	45	11	1914–1936	23
9	Phil Mickelson	1970–	United States	42	5	1991–2013	23
10	Cary Middlecoff	1921–1998	United States	40	3	1945–1961	17
11	Gene Sarazen	1902–1999	United States	39	7	1922–1941	20
	Tom Watson	1949–	United States	39	8	1974–1998	25
13	Lloyd Mangrum	1914–1973	United States	36	1	1940–1956	17
14	Vijay Singh	1963–	Fiji	34	3	1993–2008	16
15	Horton Smith	1908–1963	United States	32	2	1928–1941	14
16	Harry Cooper	1904–2000	United States	31	0	1923–1939	17
	Jimmy Demaret	1910–1983	United States	31	3	1938–1957	20
18	Leo Diegel	1899–1951	United States	30	2	1920–1934	15
19	Gene Littler	1930–	United States	29	1	1954–1977	24
	Paul Runyan	1908–2002	United States	29	2	1930–1941	12
	Lee Trevino	1939–	United States	29	6	1968–1984	17

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Here is the list of most PGA tour wins.  For Ben Hogan to surpass the three above him, he would need a significant factor in his favor.  Snead was his peer and won more tournaments.  If you go by winning %, Woods has Hogan beat.

Rank

Name

Lifespan

Country

Wins

Majors

Winning

span

Span

(years)

1

Sam Snead

1912–2002

United States

82

7

1936–1965

30

2

Tiger Woods

1975–

United States

79

14

1996–2013

18

3

Jack Nicklaus

1940–

United States

73

18

1962–1986

25

4

Ben Hogan

1912–1997

United States

64

9

1938–1959

22

5

Arnold Palmer

1929–

United States

62

7

1955–1973

19

6

Byron Nelson

1912–2006

United States

52

5

1935–1951

17

7

Billy Casper

1931–

United States

51

3

1956–1975

20

8

Walter Hagen

1892–1969

United States

45

11

1914–1936

23

9

Phil Mickelson

1970–

United States

42

5

1991–2013

23

10

Cary Middlecoff

1921–1998

United States

40

3

1945–1961

17

11

Gene Sarazen

1902–1999

United States

39

7

1922–1941

20

Tom Watson

1949–

United States

39

8

1974–1998

25

13

Lloyd Mangrum

1914–1973

United States

36

1

1940–1956

17

14

Vijay Singh

1963–

Fiji

34

3

1993–2008

16

15

Horton Smith

1908–1963

United States

32

2

1928–1941

14

16

Harry Cooper

1904–2000

United States

31

0

1923–1939

17

Jimmy Demaret

1910–1983

United States

31

3

1938–1957

20

18

Leo Diegel

1899–1951

United States

30

2

1920–1934

15

19

Gene Littler

1930–

United States

29

1

1954–1977

24

Paul Runyan

1908–2002

United States

29

2

1930–1941

12

Lee Trevino

1939–

United States

29

6

1968–1984

17

I wouldn't place Hogan above Woods or Nicklaus but vs Snead, I'd say Hogan was superior to Sam. Snead never won the US Open and Hogan lost a year due to his accident and spent 2 years overseas in WWII as did Snead. So Hogan was active for 19 years vs 28 for Snead. We can parse numbers all day but 4 US Open wins for Hogan and the career grand slam elevates him to a level achieved only by Jack, Tiger and Bobby Jones.

[9iron]

I noticed that the old timers like Snead, Hogan, Palmer etc, did not win their first event until age 26 on average. Tiger won at age 20 or 21. What is the consensu opinion as to how many wins these old timers would have gotten had A) they started on tour at age 21 and B) they did not have time overseas during WW2?

Five? Ten? Twenty?

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by 9iron

I noticed that the old timers like Snead, Hogan, Palmer etc, did not win their first event until age 26 on average. Tiger won at age 20 or 21. What is the consensu opinion as to how many wins these old timers would have gotten had A) they started on tour at age 21 and B) they did not have time overseas during WW2?

Five? Ten? Twenty?

This and numerous other variables make it impossible to compare among eras.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by 9iron

I noticed that the old timers like Snead, Hogan, Palmer etc, did not win their first event until age 26 on average. Tiger won at age 20 or 21. What is the consensu opinion as to how many wins these old timers would have gotten had A) they started on tour at age 21 and B) they did not have time overseas during WW2?

Five? Ten? Twenty?

Maybe they weren't good enough before that.  Tiger was.

[mmoan2]

Jack never faked a back injury to cover for losing an event. Tiger just did. He's weak.

[ghalfaire]

Stated simply "the ruler you use has every thing to do with the resulting measurement".   So in the case of who is the GOAT there just doesn't seem to be a "unbiased" ruler for the measurement. Iacas is correct it is just opinion.   But it certainly makes for interesting reading on the forum.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Jack never faked a back injury to cover for losing an event. Tiger just did. He's weak.

What a stupid thing to say.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Jack never faked a back injury to cover for losing an event. Tiger just did. He's weak.

Just like he faked that leg issue...just in case he lost the US Open, right?

Oh wait, double leg fracture, and a torn ACL...clearly fake...

I actually heard he had fake surgery on it and fake rehabilitated for a year.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Jack never faked a back injury to cover for losing an event. Tiger just did. He's weak.

You can crawl back under your rock now, where you must have been when they passed out the brains.

[mmoan2]

You can crawl back under your rock now, where you must have been when they passed out the brains.

lol. Sorry, I was sitting bored in a parking lot waiting for an hour to pick someone up when I wrote that. I was curious to see how many people I could piss off. I'm surprised you were it!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

lol. Sorry, I was sitting bored in a parking lot waiting for an hour to pick someone up when I wrote that. I was curious to see how many people I could piss off. I'm surprised you were it!

Unsuccessful troll was unsuccessful?

[Weed Whacker]

As of right now Jack is better.   Tiger is "chasing him"   You cant chase someone who is behind you.     Jack also took some years off from golf not knowing he was going to be as great as he had become.  Tiger was a production, a trend, a big fat bottom pouting lip.  Keep in mind Jack's greatness came from being great, Tiger's greatness came from a public relations team.  He isn't the best but he was the next in line to become the best.  That is still the story line, watch to see if Tiger will be the best.  IT looks like 70% of you bought the story line and who knows right now you may be right but you failed to acknowledge Jack has already done it and Tiger is striving to beat him.

Jack is better-

PS I am not an "old timer" I am Tigers age.

[saevel25]

From someone who's took his back out, that's pretty much what it looks like, i wouldn't want to do it in the middle of a golf swing. But, when you do pull your back out, you basically don't want to move, its not fun.

Though tiger shouldn't be bitching about bad hotel beds. You'd think he makes enough money to sleep at some place with very nice beds. I suspect since he owns a yacht that Tiger likes his luxury. Oh well.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Weed Whacker

Jack also took some years off from golf not knowing he was going to be as great as he had become.

Huh?

Originally Posted by Weed Whacker

Tiger's greatness came from a public relations team.

Wait, so… Mark Steinberg won 14 majors and 70-some PGA Tour events?

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Weed Whacker

As of right now Jack is better.   Tiger is "chasing him"   You cant chase someone who is behind you.     Jack also took some years off from golf not knowing he was going to be as great as he had become.  Tiger was a production, a trend, a big fat bottom pouting lip.  Keep in mind Jack's greatness came from being great, Tiger's greatness came from a public relations team.  He isn't the best but he was the next in line to become the best.  That is still the story line, watch to see if Tiger will be the best.  IT looks like 70% of you bought the story line and who knows right now you may be right but you failed to acknowledge Jack has already done it and Tiger is striving to beat him.

Jack is better-

PS I am not an "old timer" I am Tigers age.

Erik has it nailed but I just could not keep from commenting on the general lack of thought in this post.