Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[mvmac]

Honestly, what players in their prime, Majors winners, has Tiger played against  who are currently locks for the golf Hall of Fame?

Vijay, Furyk, Els, Phil, Rory, Padraig, Retief Goosen, Angel Cabrera, Adam Scott, Bubba, Martin Kaymer, Lee Westwood.

BTW here's the criteria

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/induction/criteria/

[RJH999]

Vijay, Furyk, Els, Phil, Rory, Padraig, Retief Goosen, Angel Cabrera, Adam Scott, Bubba, Martin Kaymer, Lee Westwood. BTW here's the criteria [URL=http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/induction/criteria/]http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/induction/criteria/[/URL]

Angel Cabrera is eligible for the Hall of Fame?! Christmas came early. All THREE of his PGA Tour victories. --------------- STANDING IN THE HALL OF FAME. WHERE THE WORLDS GON KNOW YOUR NAME. I'm really sorry, I've been brainwashed.

[mvmac]

Angel Cabrera is eligible for the Hall of Fame?! Christmas came early. All THREE of his PGA Tour victories.

STANDING IN THE HALL OF FAME. WHERE THE WORLDS GON KNOW YOUR NAME.

I'm really sorry, I've been brainwashed.

Yep, reason I included the HOF criteria

A player must have a cumulative total of 15 or more official victories on any of the original members of the International Federation of PGA Tours (PGA TOUR, European Tour, Japan Golf Tour, Sunshine Tour, Asian Tour and PGA of Australasia) OR at least two victories among the following events: The Masters, THE PLAYERS Championship, the U.S. Open, The Open Championship and the PGA Championship.

[RJH999]

Yep, reason I included the HOF criteria

He'll win the Masters come 2015 to lock up a spot ;-)

[wowzer]

3 years ago, Tiger was clearly better than Jack at the same time in their careers. Now, however, things have changed significantly. Tiger's chart is becoming more and more like Jack's.

http://www.tigerwoodsvjacknicklaus.com/

[turtleback]

He'll win the Masters come 2015 to lock up a spot

I'm not sure if you are joking or not but he already HAS 2 major victories (US Open & Masters) so he doesn't need the 2015 Masters to lock up a spot, it is already locked up.

3 years ago, Tiger was clearly better than Jack at the same time in their careers. Now, however, things have changed significantly. Tiger's chart is becoming more and more like Jack's.

http://www.tigerwoodsvjacknicklaus.com/

Interesting chart, but its fatal flaw is that there is a lot more to a golf career than just majors.  It is a chart form of 18>14 and putting it into graphical form does nothing to change the simplistic nature of that criteria.

For example, Tiger won 5 times in 2013, something that Jack only achieved 7 times in his career (it was Tiger's 10th 5 or better win season), and last achieved at age 35 in 1975.  But the chart's focus on majors and majors alone misses that little tidbit.

[RJH999]

I'm not sure if you are joking or not but he already HAS 2 major victories (US Open & Masters) so he doesn't need the 2015 Masters to lock up a spot, it is already locked up. Interesting chart, but its fatal flaw is that there is a lot more to a golf career than just majors.  It is a chart form of 18>14 and putting it into graphical form does nothing to change the simplistic nature of that criteria. For example, Tiger won 5 times in 2013, something that Jack only achieved 7 times in his career (it was Tiger's 10th 5 or better win season), and last achieved at age 35 in 1975.  But the chart's focus on majors and majors alone misses that little tidbit.

Yeah, but that's only that he's eligible for it. The voters still have to vote him in. He won't get in unless he does something special. Lee Janzen is eligible by that criteria and no way in hell is he close.

[BallMarker]

Nicklaus had only one teacher: Jack Grout. Never really changed his swing,....

I've never understood why Tiger wanted to change a swing that won him multiple majors.

.

The answer, I guess, would be "to win even more majors at a faster rate". But, why tinker with something that was working so well?

Anyway.... as they say..."Time will tell"....

[metrybill]

Fun stuff, no?

[metrybill]

Love the chart. Thanks.

More fuel for the fire:

Here are some of the players Jack beat (finished second) in his 18 majors wins.  The numbers in parentheses show their career finishes in majors (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

Arnold Palmer    (7,10, 2) HOF (Hall of Fame)

Tony Lema        (1,1,0 )*                                                                         * only played 10 years before his death in his mid 30's.

Gary Player       (9,6,3) HOF

Billy Casper       (3,4,1) HOF

Tom Weiskopf    (1,5,3)

Ben Crenshaw    (2,5,4) HOF

Ray Floyd          (4,5,1) HOF

Tom Kite            (1,4,1) HOF

Greg Norman      (2,8,4) HOF

Totals:               (30, 48, 22)

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/hall-of-fame/search-hall-of-fame-members/

Keep in mind that Nicklaus' career overlapped with the  careers of the following HOF players: T. Watson, Chi Chi Rodriguez, C. Sifford, Nick Price, J. Ozaki, Christy O'Connor, Larry Nelson, J. Ozaki, Johnny Miller, Sandy Lyle, Hubert Green, Sir Nick Faldo,

I am NOT a Tiger Woods detractor at all, albeit I admit I don't like him as a person. See my avatar, which after my most recent research I may change.  Here are some more facts about Jack.

Here are some of the players Tiger beat (finished second to him) in his 14 majors. Keep in mind that Tiger's record in the Majors is 14-6-4 compared to Nicklaus'

Tom Kite         (1,4,1) HOF

Sergio Garcia   (0, 4,2)                                       possible HOF

Ernie Els         (4, 6, 5)                                       probable HOF (if not already)

Angel Martinez (0,1, 1)                                        possible but improbable HOF

Bob May          (0,1, 0 )                                         no shot; only played in 8 majors

David Duval      (1,3, 1)                                        probable HOF ; former  no. 1

Retief Goosen   (2,2,2)                                        probable HOF

Phil Mickelson  (5, 9, 7) HOF in waiting

Chris Dimarco   (0, 3,0)                                        no shot

C Montgomerie  (0, 5, 0) HOF ; but questionable to say the least.  won his berth off of European Tour Record and Ryder Cup

S. Micheel         (1, 1, 0)                                      no shot

Woody Austin    (0, 1, 0)                                      not a shot in hell

Rocco Mediate   (0, 1, 0)                                     not a shot in hell

Totals                (16-35-18)

You decide. MVAC.

Metrybill

[late347]

I thought Phil Mickelson is already HoF in golf. There's a youtube video about him giving some kind of speech to an audience in 2012. Hall of fame inductuon event?

[iacas]

Again, @metrybill , you ignore strength and depth of field. And Tiger's performance beyond majors, too. You're an 18>14 guy, plain and simple.

[mvmac]

You decide. MVAC.

Metrybill

All I did was answer your question to how many HOF players has Tiger beaten. I think the GOAT race is pretty darn even, I'm not an advocate for Tiger or Jack but as @iacas said you have to consider strength of field and how that effects a competitor's "greatness".

[14ledo81]

Another way to look at "strength of field" is to compare it to high school sports.  A somewhat decent team can totally dominate a lower division, but would still get beat by a mid-level upper division team.

Not to say a lower division team can't be good, just that it can appear they are better than they truly are because of the teams they play.

[ScouseJohnny]

Love the chart. Thanks.

More fuel for the fire:

Here are some of the players Jack beat (finished second) in his 18 majors wins.  The numbers in parentheses show their career finishes in majors (1st, 2nd, 3rd).

Tony Lema        (1,1,0 )*                                                                         * only played 10 years before his death in his mid 30's.

There's a fascinating question.

He died years before I was born, so I've never had the pleasure of watching him play (other than in a few black & white or colour-faded clips on Youtube), but I have become quite interested in "Champagne Tony," after happening upon an old copy of his book from the early '60s in an antiquarian bookshop. The Youtube clips are instructive. His looked to be a beautiful swing of that era.

He trounced Nicklaus in the 1964 British Open, was consistently winning from late 1962 up until his death in 1966, and tied fourth in the US Open in the year of his death.

It's all speculative, of course (but then this entire question and its resultant thread are speculative), but I can't help thinking that, but for a tragic plane crash, this might not be a "18 vs 14" question; not saying that Nicklaus wouldn't still have more majors than Woods, but, had fate not intervened, Lema ought to have been a serious contender for majors in the late '60s and early '70s - a time during which Nicklaus picked up three or four of his majors.

[flopster]

There's a fascinating question.

He died years before I was born, so I've never had the pleasure of watching him play (other than in a few black & white or colour-faded clips on Youtube), but I have become quite interested in "Champagne Tony," after happening upon an old copy of his book from the early '60s in an antiquarian bookshop. The Youtube clips are instructive. His looked to be a beautiful swing of that era.

He trounced Nicklaus in the 1964 British Open, was consistently winning from late 1962 up until his death in 1966, and tied fourth in the US Open in the year of his death.

It's all speculative, of course (but then this entire question and its resultant thread are speculative), but I can't help thinking that, but for a tragic plane crash, this might not be a "18 vs 14" question; not saying that Nicklaus wouldn't still have more majors than Woods, but, had fate not intervened, Lema ought to have been a serious contender for majors in the late '60s and early '70s - a time during which Nicklaus picked up three or four of his majors.

Not trying to fan a fire here because I believe Tiger is clearly the better golfer but one has to wonder if Payne Stewart hadn't died in a plane crash as well what would Tigers major total look like, the only thing with Tiger is he didn't just edge a couple guys in the end he would just run away with it and not look back.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopster

Not trying to fan a fire here because I believe Tiger is clearly the better golfer but one has to wonder if Payne Stewart hadn't died in a plane crash as well what would Tigers major total look like, the only thing with Tiger is he didn't just edge a couple guys in the end he would just run away with it and not look back.

You could make the same argument about Jack and the death of Tony Lema.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Lema

Quote:

While Lema's struggles continued in 1962, along with his debt to Lowery reaching over $11,000, his luck would finally change for good. On the eve of his victory in October 1962 at the Orange County Open Invitational in Costa Mesa, California , Lema joked he would serve champagne to the press if he won the next day. ^[5] From then on he was known as Champagne Tony , and his handsome looks and vivacious personality added to the legend, such that Johnny Miller has stated that at the time of his death in 1966, Lema was second only to Arnold Palmer in fan popularity.

That win sparked an impressive performance over the next four years that saw him win 12 official PGA tour events, finish second on 11 occasions, and third four times. From 1963 through July 1966, Lema finished in the top-10 over 50% of the time and never missed a cut in a professional major, finishing in the top-10 in 8 of the 15 majors in which he played. He was a member of the 1963 and 1965 United States Ryder Cup teams, and his Ryder Cup record (9–1–1) is the best of any player who has played in two or more.

Parenthetically the first golf book I ever got was by Tony Lema.  It was called something Like Champagne Tony's Tips.

[flopster]

You could make the same argument about Jack and the death of Tony Lema.

I agree and upon further research Stewart was 42 when he died so in reality I doubt he may have made that much of an impact like a Tony Lema with Jack. Scratch it.