Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[MSchott]

Our local 7083 yd public course has a slope of 136 from the tips. 123 from 6600. My neighbor played the course from the tips, and he said it's brutal: two 200 yd par 3s. 6270 (white) for women is rated 76/129; even the reds are 73/121.

It all depends on the player's handicap. A 200 yard par 3 is not a big deal for a low handicap player, even a women. Stacy Lewis on Saturday hit a tee shot on a short par 4 today to within about 10 foot with a driver. That's a lot of talent. Not sure of my point but it's true that these women are outstanding golfers.

[Lihu]

Our local 7083 yd public course has a slope of 136 from the tips. 123 from 6600. My neighbor played the course from the tips, and he said it's brutal: two 200 yd par 3s. 6270 (white) for women is rated 76/129; even the reds are 73/121.

200 yard par 3 are not as hard as a 480 or longer yard par 4. We have one that is 506 yards from the gold tees and 520 from the very back, and basically at sea level.

[DrvFrShow]

Note the 13 pts of slope with only 400 yds over 18 holes. The black tees are very hard in comparison to the blues.

I can't even imagine a 480 yd par 4. I'm going up and down from about 60 yds on a good day. If I'm playing decently that's a bogey. On an average day that's a DB. I just don't have that kind of distance.

[SavvySwede]

2014 U.S Open Pinehurst No.2

Martin Kaymer -9    7588 yards

Michelle Wie    -2    6649 yards w/ easier set pins and watered greens

Kaymer averaged 1.75 strokes less per round playing the same course nearly 1000 yards longer and set up tougher.

A scratch golfer would have had to shoot 74 75 to make the cut in the women's US open which would be 6.75 strokes higher than Kaymers average from 1000 yards back.

Could a Scratch golfer beet Kaymer that week if Kaymer gave him 1000 yards, 7 strokes, easier pins, and softened greens? I'm inclined to say yes but it would still be close. Damn they are good

Edit: It is 1am so I'm not sure if my logic makes any sense here

[BuckeyeNut]

it's the beer talking now......LOL

[Mr22putt]

Your typical scratch male golfer is likely a working class guy who plays twice a week and maybe practices 3-4 hours a week.

The LPGA consists of the BEST female golfers on the planet.

People who are the BEST....typically work very long hours being the BEST.

So a LPGA pro likely plays and practices 55-65+ hours per week with top coaching, and custom fitted equipment.

Your average scores are approx. 3 strokes higher than your handicap....see attached.

http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/beat_your_handicap.html

The LPGA typically play courses at 6300-6500 yards.....likely on average with a course rating around 70.5

So the average male scratch golfer would average 73.5.

From the 2014 LPGA stats....Lorie Kane played 14 events with a scoring average of 73.5,,,,and made $23,000.

http://www2.lpga.com/stats/stats-detail.aspx?q=scoring%20avg&y;=2014&p;=4

[Shorty]

Could a Scratch golfer beet Kaymer that week if Kaymer gave him 1000 yards, 7 strokes, easier pins, and softened greens? I'm inclined to say yes but it would still be close.

It might be close 1 round out of 20.

And Kaymer would have to be injured in that round.

[ay33660]

Your typical scratch male golfer is likely a working class guy who plays twice a week and maybe practices 3-4 hours a week.

The LPGA consists of the BEST female golfers on the planet.

People who are the BEST....typically work very long hours being the BEST.

So a LPGA pro likely plays and practices 55-65+ hours per week with top coaching, and custom fitted equipment.

Your average scores are approx. 3 strokes higher than your handicap....see attached.

http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/beat_your_handicap.html

The LPGA typically play courses at 6300-6500 yards.....likely on average with a course rating around 70.5

So the average male scratch golfer would average 73.5.

From the 2014 LPGA stats....Lorie Kane played 14 events with a scoring average of 73.5,,,,and made $23,000.

http://www2.lpga.com/stats/stats-detail.aspx?q=scoring%20avg&y;=2014&p;=4

I  think there are more than a few scratch golfers like Jeff Knox playing in private clubs who have the time and money to practice and play as much as they want.

http://nolayingup.com/2014/04/12/jeff-knox-definitely-not-laying-up/

I know of a few guys at my club who are scratch golfers and who have the financial capacity to play and practice daily. One of the guys even told me that engages a sports psychologist that PGA pros use in Phoenix to help with his game.

[Lihu]

Note the 13 pts of slope with only 400 yds over 18 holes. The black tees are very hard in comparison to the blues. I can't even imagine a 480 yd par 4. I'm going up and down from about 60 yds on a good day. If I'm playing decently that's a bogey. On an average day that's a DB. I just don't have that kind of distance.

That's only two holes. The rest are in the 320-450 range. My point was just that a 200 yard par 3 is not that hard. Even if you mishit a 4i or 5i or whatever you use for that distance, you are left with a 30 yard or less chip for an up and down. The tough holes are the ones where as you described on a good day hit driver then 3H or even a 3W and still have 60 yards left to the pin. It would be interesting to see how far the average amateur scratch golfers actually drive the ball and hit their 7i? The LPGA actually hit 246 on average and carry 226 on average, and all their irons are listed pretty accurately.

[Golfingdad]

I'm sure that this has already been stated, but it seems pretty simple if you just consider that there are sets of tees on some courses rated for both men and women and the ones I looked at all are roughly 6 shots different.

We've discussed at length how average male pros are somewhere in the mid single digits on the plus side (+4 to +6 or whatever) ... If we can safely assume that female pros are also averaging around that same mark, then a scratch male golfer would fit right in with an average female pro.

It's science. ;)

[Lihu]

I'm sure that this has already been stated, but it seems pretty simple if you just consider that there are sets of tees on some courses rated for both men and women and the ones I looked at all are roughly 6 shots different. We've discussed at length how average male pros are somewhere in the mid single digits on the plus side (+4 to +6 or whatever) ... If we can safely assume that female pros are also averaging around that same mark, then a scratch male golfer would fit right in with an average female pro. It's science. ;)

This is exactly what I was thinking of while writing my last post. R&A; published that 0-5 HC drive (total distance) 240 yards. My assumption is that scratch might be 246-250? Then this could imply somehow that a scratch is pretty evenly matched with the average LPGA or a bit better as Erik's OP asserted.

[SoundandFury]

Note the 13 pts of slope with only 400 yds over 18 holes. The black tees are very hard in comparison to the blues.

I can't even imagine a 480 yd par 4. I'm going up and down from about 60 yds on a good day. If I'm playing decently that's a bogey. On an average day that's a DB. I just don't have that kind of distance.

It ain't easy, that's for sure.  I played the Dunes at Diamante last week, where the 10th is a 490 yard par 4.  Hole was playing slightly downwind, and fairway is about 10 yards below the tee box.  Even with a piped drive, I had 180 uphill to the green.  Missed left and chip/two putt for bogey.  Felt a lot like a par to me.  In my mind a par 4 that plays over 460 is an easily reachable par 5, and that's how I play it.

[iacas]

I agree the PGA players are much better in all respects, but we are comparing a scratch golfer AM hack to LPGA tour players.

A scratch golfer isn't a "hack."

Stats are such a fine line that a very small margin separates the #1 putter on the PGA from the #20putter.       On the other hand, I suggest there is a much bigger difference between the #20 putter on PGA and or a Stacy Lewis....and an amateur hack weekend golfer that carries a 0 HC.   It's much more than just a GIR putting number.  It's putts holed inside of 5,10, 15 feet too to save pars.

The average scratch putter will out-putt the average PGA Tour player over 30% of the time.

You seem to be vastly over-estimating how good female golfers are. We also don't really care about the top putters on the LPGA Tour - you'd only have to putt "average."

Anyway...I don't want to cause a pissing match.   I am just speaking out as a guy that has played scratch golf before........ and I don't believe a golfer of this caliber can make a living on the LPGA.    end of rant........   They wouldn't just fail to maintain their card, but they'd get washed out by epic proportions.

I disagree.

I know "knowing someone who...." is anecdotal and not scientific data, but I used to play with a guy in Washington who I'd play Wine Valley Golf Course with. From the tips this course plays 7600 yds. The greens were huge, sloping and paper thin fast. He was scratch. Gold 76.1/134 was the slope rating (gold tees the tips). Amazing ball striker. Awesome putter. He'd played for years, never in college, never even attempted a career in golf (he's a rheumatologist). He'd shoot 70, 69, (par 72). My last round with him, he shot 65. Just as calm as can be, really fun to watch for me.

Your guy was a +2 or something. He might have played "without strokes" but it's unlikely he was a +1 to 1 handicap or so.

First, I doubt that the greens on this course are as fast as those played by the LPGA tour.

LPGA Tour greens are not particularly fast. Plenty of country clubs or higher end daily fee clubs can match or exceed the average green speeds of LPGA Tour greens. I know this because… I know of some clubs that have hosted LPGA tournaments, even majors, and they often slow the greens down a tremendous amount.

The difference in setups between the U.S. Women's Open at Oakmont, for example, and the daily member play was phenomenal. Rough was lower, greens were MUCH slower, and holes significantly shorter.

Second, for a 7600 yard course, a 134 slope is not high at all. The 6400 yard course I play has a 131 slope.

Slope is irrelevant to this conversation. In fact, it works the other way: a guy (or gal) who shoots 5 under might be a +4.0 index because the slope minimizes their index. (5 * 113/135 * 0.96 = 4.0 index)

Our local 7083 yd public course has a slope of 136 from the tips.

Slope isn't relevant.

Your typical scratch male golfer is likely a working class guy who plays twice a week and maybe practices 3-4 hours a week.

The LPGA consists of the BEST female golfers on the planet.

People who are the BEST....typically work very long hours being the BEST.

So a LPGA pro likely plays and practices 55-65+ hours per week with top coaching, and custom fitted equipment.

The point is that they're the best… female golfers. A college football team would probably beat the best female team (of any age) you could assemble at football. For some things, males have an advantage.

Plus, as I said in the first post, the male would start the year as a scratch golfer, but since he's playing the LPGA Tour, he wouldn't be playing golf twice a week and practicing three hours a week. He'd get better.

Your average scores are approx. 3 strokes higher than your handicap....see attached.

http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/beat_your_handicap.html

The problem with that is that he doesn't specify ranges. Lower handicappers tend to have tighter averages. An 18 might average 5 over his index and a +1 might average 1 over his index.

So the average male scratch golfer would average 73.5.

From the 2014 LPGA stats....Lorie Kane played 14 events with a scoring average of 73.5,,,,and made $23,000.

http://www2.lpga.com/stats/stats-detail.aspx?q=scoring%20avg&y;=2014&p;=4

Mo Martin averaged 72.512 last year and won a major. (I would have picked the girl who averaged 72.5 on the number, but she only played four rounds, so it just happened that a major winner was next on the list, on p=3 from the URL above).

Mo won $680,624 last year.

I'm sure that this has already been stated, but it seems pretty simple if you just consider that there are sets of tees on some courses rated for both men and women and the ones I looked at all are roughly 6 shots different.

We've discussed at length how average male pros are somewhere in the mid single digits on the plus side (+4 to +6 or whatever) ... If we can safely assume that female pros are also averaging around that same mark, then a scratch male golfer would fit right in with an average female pro.

It's science. ;)

It may not be science, but it's logical and a good point of reference.

[DrvFrShow]

Yeah, iacas, I know about slope. It's a way of manipulating one's HC. The course is rated 74.2 from the tips FYI. I guess that's more relevant.

Chambers Bay is rated 75.6 from the tips and 72.4 from 6500. And for the rest of us they have the tees recommended by drive distance. The Open will be interesting this year.

[iacas]

Yeah, iacas, I know about slope. It's a way of manipulating one's HC. The course is rated 74.2 from the tips FYI. I guess that's more relevant.

Chambers Bay is rated 75.6 from the tips and 72.4 from 6500. And for the rest of us they have the tees recommended by drive distance. The Open will be interesting this year.

Right. Course rating is far more relevant when you're talking about people around 0.0 handicap index.

Those 72.4 tees would be about 78.5 for women.

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

Could a Scratch golfer beet Kaymer that week if Kaymer gave him 1000 yards, 7 strokes, easier pins, and softened greens? I'm inclined to say yes but it would still be close.

It might be close 1 round out of 20.

And Kaymer would have to be injured in that round.

I figure Kaymer was playing  to about a +10 that week. 1000 yards, easier pins, and softer greens should cut down the difficulty by at least 3 strokes and giving up seven stokes should bring it to an even match up. How many strokes do you think would be necessary?

[Shorty]

I figure Kaymer was playing  to about a +10 that week. 1000 yards, easier pins, and softer greens should cut down the difficulty by at least 3 strokes and giving up seven stokes should bring it to an even match up. How many strokes do you think would be necessary?

My problem with these types of scenarios is that I don't believe that we're comparing apples with apples.

The handicapping system is supposed to take into account all of the variables, but it doesn't when people do it their own way.

When I think of a scratch player, and the dozens I have known over the years, I am thinking about a player who is regularly under par and expects par. A round of 75 on a decent course in OK weather is a poor round, but is erased by several rounds around par.  Scratch players can struggle, but their scores are very consistent.

Here, I see people writing who say they are are close to scratch never having played a competition round, asking what to expect in their first "tournament" and people in the mid single figures ditching drivers and asking for advice about golf balls.

To answer the question - I think that a scratch player who is a top amateur - one of the best guys in a region that everyone knows about - would need 7 shots a round over 4 rounds to be anywhere near say, Kaymer when he's shooting mid to high 60s.

My point is that a person who manipulates a handicap and calls himself a scratch player may be a 10 or 12. Someone reading this thread could have in mind a player who says he's scratch but is nowhere near it. So person A ( a relative newbie whose father in law says he's a scratch but never putts inside 4 feet) may not be aware that "scratch isn't scratch". Person B might think of a guy who plays off scratch was pro for a coiple of years, made no money and went back to amateur status.

My scratch player might do his scratch player by 15 shots. Which leads me to........

Back to my pet topic, Dan McLaughlin, who thinks he's a 2.x wouldn't be within 10 shots of the players I know who are genuine 0, 1 or 2 players. 2 markers are not scoring in the 80s more than once or twice in 20 rounds. His "83" at Pebble would be closer to 100 than 90 if he'd played off the big boy tees. And we aren't all playing Oakmont off the back tees week in week out.

[Golfingdad]

My problem with these types of scenarios is that I don't believe that we're comparing apples with apples. The handicapping system is supposed to take into account all of the variables, but it doesn't when people do it their own way. When I think of a scratch player, and the dozens I have known over the years, I am thinking about a player who is regularly under par and expects par. A round of 75 on a decent course in OK weather is a poor round, but is erased by several rounds around par.  Scratch players can struggle, but their scores are very consistent. Here, I see people writing who say they are are close to scratch never having played a competition round, asking what to expect in their first "tournament" and people in the mid single figures ditching drivers and asking for advice about golf balls. To answer the question - I think that a scratch player who is a top amateur - one of the best guys in a region that everyone knows about - would need 7 shots a round over 4 rounds to be anywhere near say, Kaymer when he's shooting mid to high 60s. My point is that a person who manipulates a handicap and calls himself a scratch player may be a 10 or 12. Someone reading this thread could have in mind a player who says he's scratch but is nowhere near it. So person A ( a relative newbie whose father in law says he's a scratch but never putts inside 4 feet) may not be aware tat "scratch isn't scratch" Back to my pet topic, Dan McLaughlin, who thinks he's a 2.x wouldn't be within 10 shots of the players I know who are genuine 0, 1 or 2 players. 2 markers are not scoring in the 80s more than once or twice in 20 rounds. And we aren't all playing Oakmont off the back tees week in week out.

You're right, it's not apples to apples ... More like cantaloupes to a banana and a couple of plums.