The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[Ernest Jones]

4 hours ago, concordeer said:

Is this what Harvey Penick was doing with the "right elbow/left heel" move he discussed in his little red book? Doesn't this move force your hips to slide forward before rotating? 

It's been a loooong time since I read that book. Can you remind me what he said 

[Kujan]

On 3/14/2016 at 1:02 PM, Ernest Jones said:

For some people, the feel of driving the hips towards first base can help drive the hips forward while delaying the turn so you don't spin out and come OTT.

This just might be the feeling I need to avoid opening the hips too soon, resulting in a heel shot.

[Peter_b]

On 27. September 2009 at 5:04 AM, Ringer said:

Iacas, very good. It's absolutely right.

I have a fundamental disagreement with 95% of instruction on hip turn, and here you've nailed one of the reasons I came to my conclusions.

The front hip must establish itself over the heel of your front foot. Then your back hip must establish itself over the toe of your front foot. This is the ONLY way a person can BALANCE themselves on their finish.

So, pushing the right knee toward the toe of your front foot is key to this hip action as you have pointed out.

I describe the hip action as more of a dual door hinge.

Imagine your back hip is a door hinge on the backswing. Your front hip rotates around that door hinge when you make your turn. Then to make your forward swing, you need to switch the rolls of your hips. Now the front hip needs to become the hinge while the back hip rotates around it. Before your front hip can do that, it must establish a new position. The best place for your front hip to go is over the heel of your front foot. This is the furthest toward the target it can go without you loosing balance and affecting your ability to move the rest of your body.

Once this DIRECTION is done correctly, the speed can be however fast you want. In fact, the faster it is done, the better.

This is why I cringe everytime someone says the solution to their slice is to "slow their hips down".

The solution is actually to learn the direction you want them to go. Then get there as fast as you want.

I just registered to say that this is the best explanation I have ever read. Thank you!

[Buckeyebowman]

I see this is an "oldie but goodie", and I certainly didn't want to wade through 46 pages of content. But just from reading the title of the thread, and this last page, I second that emotion. You have to slide your hips before you turn them! But, how much?

I used to do a drill I called the "door jamb" drill. You would set up in an empty door jamb with the outside of your left foot, for a right hander, up against the jamb. You would mimic a swing, and, on the down swing, let your hips "slide" until your left hip hit the jamb. Only then would you start to turn your hips. This puts your left hip directly above your left foot.

Thinking back, I used to play a lot of golf with a friend who moved West many years ago. Big guy, 6'4" and 220, but basically an arms and upper body swinger. He could still hit the ball long, but once in a while, by accident, he'd get his lower body involved and then he would crush it like Daly!

Every time he did that I'd tease him by saying, "Yeah! You really got your big, fat, left ass cheek into that one, dintcha?!"

[Peter_b]

That is quite the point, you can do it or you can not, its incredibly hard to learn and there are 50 yards buried there. I am still not sure what makes it so hard to do a motion that sounds easy.  push left + put the weight on left heel + right knee to left toe and push up straighten the legs. Timing?  Something that makes that motion impossible like starting with the arms even just a bit? Whats the killer of this motion?

Edited May 27, 2016 by Peter_b

[boogielicious]

21 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

That is quite the point, you can do it or you can not, its incredibly hard to learn and there are 50 yards buried there. I am still not sure what makes it so hard to do a motion that sounds easy.  push left + put the weight on left heel + right knee to left toe and push up straighten the legs. Timing?  Something that makes that motion impossible like starting with the arms even just a bit? Whats the killer of this motion?

It may be how you are practicing to change your motion. It is hard to change something that you have done hundreds and even thousands of times unless you practice smart. Check these two threads out.

 

[cartierbresson]

I read all the pages of this thread and have a few of questions about hip slide and rotation.

Three very different ways I can start a hip slide at the top of my backswing. Which one is correct?

1. Slide hip towards the target while keeping the back toward the target. Basically the whole body feels like it's moving in one piece towards the target. In reality, the knees end up about where they started while the rest of the body looks about the same (just shifted).
2. Kick the right knee towards the target. The makes the left knee move towards the target, but little else in the swing changes.
3. Kick the left knee towards the target as much as you can while shifting weight on it. This tends to straighten the right knee.

My second question is -- when do I know I've slid too much?

My third question is -- do I continue to slide in the downswing till impact? If I stop earlier, when? 

Finally, how much hip rotation is too much? I compared my positions to Hogan's and my hips rotate more than his at various points in the transition (relative to the same amount of shoulder turn).

Edited June 16, 2016 by cartierbresson

[saevel25]

41 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

My second question is -- when do I know I've slid too much?

Sliding the hips forward, getting your weight forward at impact, is very important. It's properly done in conjunction with turning the body as well. 

42 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

Three very different ways I can start a hip slide at the top of my backswing. Which one is correct?

Which ever produce the best and most consistent results for your swing. 

43 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

My third question is -- do I continue to slide in the downswing till impact? If I stop earlier, when? 

I think for most PGA Tour players this happens when the left arm just gets past parallel to the ground in the downswing. After looking at a few PGA Tour swings it looks like they are not sliding significantly more forward at this point in the swing. I could be wrong. This was more of a quick observation. 

 

[Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

I read all the pages of this thread and have a few of questions about hip slide and rotation.

Three very different ways I can start a hip slide at the top of my backswing. Which one is correct?

1. Slide hip towards the target while keeping the back toward the target. Basically the whole body feels like it's moving in one piece towards the target. In reality, the knees end up about where they started while the rest of the body looks about the same (just shifted).
2. Kick the right knee towards the target. The makes the left knee move towards the target, but little else in the swing changes.
3. Kick the left knee towards the target as much as you can while shifting weight on it. This tends to straighten the right knee.

My second question is -- when do I know I've slid too much?

My third question is -- do I continue to slide in the downswing till impact? If I stop earlier, when? 

Finally, how much hip rotation is too much? I compared my positions to Hogan's and my hips rotate more than his at various points in the transition (relative to the same amount of shoulder turn).

My lesson today was actually about this . .kinda sorta anyway  .because I do the slide all wrong.  My hips currently are rotated too much at impact but I also move a lot, laterally, so it's more like a "twisty lunge" kind of deal, lol. 

The way my teacher explained it to me today . .and what we worked on . .was the feeling of the left knee moving away from the right knee in the transition.  From the top of the backswing, my hands drop straight down,  and my left knee moves away from my right.  Currently my right knee wants to go along with my left.  

Another way I think of it is that my arms and club are staying back, even "squishing in" to my body, my right knee is not moving, my left knee is moving toward the target.  I'm trying to feel a tension under my left shoulder by the time I'm ready to "let it go" and start the downswing rotation in earnest.    

I have not mastered this at all so . .take the above for what it's worth, lol. 

[Buckeyebowman]

9 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

I read all the pages of this thread and have a few of questions about hip slide and rotation.

Three very different ways I can start a hip slide at the top of my backswing. Which one is correct?

1. Slide hip towards the target while keeping the back toward the target. Basically the whole body feels like it's moving in one piece towards the target. In reality, the knees end up about where they started while the rest of the body looks about the same (just shifted).
2. Kick the right knee towards the target. The makes the left knee move towards the target, but little else in the swing changes.
3. Kick the left knee towards the target as much as you can while shifting weight on it. This tends to straighten the right knee.

My second question is -- when do I know I've slid too much?

My third question is -- do I continue to slide in the downswing till impact? If I stop earlier, when? 

Finally, how much hip rotation is too much? I compared my positions to Hogan's and my hips rotate more than his at various points in the transition (relative to the same amount of shoulder turn).

I initiate my hip slide by feeling my weight settle into my left heel. When that happens the left knee has no choice but to follow. Then the slide begins.

You've slid too much if your left hip gets outside of your left foot. See the "doorjamb drill" above. Also, you may start losing your balance targetward.

Your hip slide should be done, and your hip rotation well underway at impact, otherwise it's going to be tough to square the clubface.

At the end of the swing I don't know that there's such a thing as too much hip rotation, but you can have too much of it during the downswing. Your body can get too far out in front, it can outrace your arms and hands through the ball.

This reminds me of a time when a single caught up to us while we were playing behind a kind of slow foursome. We invited him to join up with us, and he did. He was a young kid, hadn't been playing golf that long, but hit the ball quite well despite a noticeable lack of lower body involvement in the swing. My buddy and I could play a little bit back then, and the kid asked us all kinds of questions. So, we described, and demonstrated, what the legs and hips should do in a golf swing.

The kid was a natural athlete, because he started mimicking us and the next thing we know, he's out driving us! But, like many newbs, he started to overdo it and winding up in the woods. We told him he had to throttle it back a little, and got him fairly well straightened out by the end of the round.

The thing is, it's fairly hard to tell you "how much" to do something in a golf swing when you're right there with the person, and darned near impossible to do in print. We can offer tips like the doorjamb drill, and other suggestions made above, but you have to go out and try them and see how well they work for you. You may have to discard some suggestions and keep others. There are 125 exempt players on the tour, and none of them swings exactly alike although there are similarities. You need to find what works for you.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[cartierbresson]

3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

You've slid too much if your left hip gets outside of your left foot.

Got it. Thanks for the tip.

Quote

See the "doorjamb drill" above. 

I found it. Sounds like a great drill, I'll try it today.

Quote

There are 125 exempt players on the tour, and none of them swings exactly alike although there are similarities. You need to find what works for you.

I understand what you mean, but "learning by doing" isn't working for me. I've been working full-time on my swing for five months spending about 30 hours a week on the driving range. All of it has been deep and deliberate practice. The biggest problem by far is that I can get my body to basically do so many things -- a lot of which produce results -- that I don't know what the right moves are. For example, I know about four different ways I can shallow my swing -- they all produce a draw with compression -- but I know that at least one of them is wrong because it involves deliberately moving my arms down and keeping my shoulders closed. 

Someone else may have better results, but I can't stress this more: simply trying different things and waiting for things to fall in place can be very confusing and ultimately, extremely frustrating. That's why I'm here discussing this on a forum and not hacking away on the range!

Here's a video explaining my confusion with the transition:

 

 

[Peter_b]

A lot of people have the problem to get into the rock skipping slot, me included. To rock your head and spine left like you show as the second option is a big No-No. I found with a friend, hi John, that the knees are not the easy way doing it. We prefer to start from the ground up and really go for the weight left early to the side of the left foot and then to heel of the foot all before impact. The knees follow. You know you are in a good position if you can pull hard left as you like. Whatever pull left means as its just a feeling. 

[jp k]

Hi. A little counter theory here. The action of planting your left foot with your back to the target effectively gets you all the forward move you need unconsciously. ANY additional intentional slide can be too much and you run the risk of getting stuck and hooking, pushing... the root of all issues, possibly

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by jp k
Completeness

[Rainmaker]

7 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

Got it. Thanks for the tip.

I found it. Sounds like a great drill, I'll try it today.

I understand what you mean, but "learning by doing" isn't working for me. I've been working full-time on my swing for five months spending about 30 hours a week on the driving range. All of it has been deep and deliberate practice. The biggest problem by far is that I can get my body to basically do so many things -- a lot of which produce results -- that I don't know what the right moves are. For example, I know about four different ways I can shallow my swing -- they all produce a draw with compression -- but I know that at least one of them is wrong because it involves deliberately moving my arms down and keeping my shoulders closed. 

Someone else may have better results, but I can't stress this more: simply trying different things and waiting for things to fall in place can be very confusing and ultimately, extremely frustrating. That's why I'm here discussing this on a forum and not hacking away on the range!

Here's a video explaining my confusion with the transition:

 

 

Cool video - from my perspective:

method 1 is right - you might need more shoulder turn, or to keep your shoulders turned back longer to "make room".  Also when you said something like . ."from *here* I can really fire forward" ..your right knee looked like it wanted to go too early.  Perhaps it's because you were talking, though.  To me . .method #1 looks exactly like what I'm trying to do.   

edit-  another thing I noticed was that you were talking at the top of your backswing quite easily.  Again, this may have been for the camera, but I'm so coiled up at the top of my backswing that I can't easily speak or hold it for too long.  That was one of those things I didn't *see* on video and it took me a while to realize I had no where near enough coil building up in my backswing. 

method 2 *could* be right but you'd need to "sit back" more with your back facing the target . .ie . .don't let your upper body move so much.  I think you have more than enough flexibility for method 1, though.

method 3 and 4 are both wrong.  Again - way too much lateral movement with the upper body. 

I think you're talking about what I like to call "muscle cognition".  Muscle cognition is a basic understanding of the movement.  Muscle memory, if you believe it in it, is rote memory just from repetition.   So muscle memory would allow us to make the same motions over and over, even if they're wrong.  Muscle Cognition would allow us to make many small variations in the movement but still essentially get it right . .because we know what the function of the movement is.  You can't get "muscle cognition" from videos . .you have to sort of "back into it" while doing the rote repetition stuff.

I'm searching for some kind of feel to help me with method 1 and right now I'm using that of a "step forward".  I imagine if I were going to hit a baseball  . .how I would take that big step forward . .I'm trying to do that with my *weight* and it's allowing me to really feel like I'm stepping into the ball.  I'm getting a great weight transfer and a great push off my back foot this way but my tendency is to "lose" some of the downward motion with my arms. 

I only just started really working on this move so chances are I'll be using a different feel by the time I'm done working on it.  Hope this helps a little.  I'd say keep working on method 1.  Find out "why" you don't have enough room and fix that.   It took me either 30 years or 5 years to get to this point in my swing (depending if you count times when I wasn't practicing, or playing lol) . .so I'd say you're doing pretty well!  Keep it up! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Rainmaker

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

I understand what you mean, but "learning by doing" isn't working for me. I've been working full-time on my swing for five months spending about 30 hours a week on the driving range. All of it has been deep and deliberate practice. The biggest problem by far is that I can get my body to basically do so many things -- a lot of which produce results -- that I don't know what the right moves are. For example, I know about four different ways I can shallow my swing -- they all produce a draw with compression -- but I know that at least one of them is wrong because it involves deliberately moving my arms down and keeping my shoulders closed. 

It would be best if you started a swing thread so we could look at what you're doing when you're hitting a ball. What's happening on the downswing could just be due to something that's off on the backswing.

How you start your transition differs from player to player, I'm taking about the feel. Some feel it with their hips, other feel it with their arms, some with their knees. Just depends on what feels translates best and where your swing is at. Someone that stays closed and tips their upper center back is going to feel something much different than someone that moves their head forward.

A "stock" feel or positioning I like to use for the downswing is to move the lead knee "down and around". So from the top of your backswing, from the player's perspective, let's say the left knee is at 1 or 2 o'clock. From the top as you start down to when the shaft is parallel to the ground you want to move the left knee from 1:00 to 11:00 or 10:00 (outside the ankle) as it gains or retains flex. Doesn't have to be exactly like this, just trying to give you a place to start from.

 

Day Trip to Orlando ✈️

A photo posted by Brian Creghan (@briancreghan) on May 26, 2016 at 5:06pm PDT

[jp k]

Mvmac, can you expand on this for two or three more frames, because I think that is where the answer lies.  How do you go from that pos'n and keep going without stalling the hips to achieve left hip high, left shoulder high, weight left heel and balanced?

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, jp k said:

Mvmac, can you expand on this for two or three more frames, because I think that is where the answer lies.  How do you go from that pos'n and keep going without stalling the hips to achieve left hip high, left shoulder high, weight left heel and balanced?

The hips, weight, left knee being forward allows you to then start "pushing" off the ground which also helps keep you turning.

 

[Buckeyebowman]

To the OP. I think you are confusing yourself with too many thoughts. As far as the vid you posted, the guy's first example was nothing more than the "Sam Snead squat", which happens to be very effective.

It seems to me that you might be searching for perfection, and I will tell you right now that there is no such thing in golf! You need to find what works for you "most of the time". Believe me, that's what the pros at the U.S. Open this week are working with! How are the top three pros in the world doing so far?

And what works for you most of the time can change over time! This is evolution! Survival of the fittest and all that!