The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[mvmac]

It seems like Quattro and the mods are talking at cross purposes / word meanings a bit.

It sounds to me like Quattro is emphasizing the feel of working down the inside of the trail leg after the lead foot is replanted during transition.

Yeah I don't see that. If he was talking about a feel he wouldn't be posting studies and pics of players on scales.

Sorry, I'm confused now. If they're synonyms then you mean lateral shifting and/or slide? I don't get your variation of slide. Is it identical to 'old school' definition or different? To be even clearer 'hip movement toward target' relative to position at address, yes?

The pics Erik posted here are what we mean by sliding.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/29616/the-biggest-secret-slide-your-hips/720#post_1153011

[32quattro]

Then at this point I'd ask you to make a statement and stand by it, and I don't mean one couched in words like "firm left side" that vary in definition and/or have no real scientific value.

Thus far, it seems to me you've simply disagreed while continually shifting the goalposts. In a thread about sliding the hips forward, you talked about pressure and force, you've talked about the sternum moving forward, you've talked about "meat behind the ball," you've talked about the positions in the early downswing, you've talked about how sliding is a bad thing that will lead to blocks, etc.

You've ignored the counterpoint made against you, like the horrible use of analog scales. So again, please, make some definitive statements that say what you think to be true and we'll discuss those.

I believe this to be incorrect, and I have demonstrated this with photos, and I have seen plenty of 3D data to show that center of the hip girdle moves forward a fair amount during the downswing. It varies by player and club, but it's moving forward.

With all due respect, no, you didn't. You showed examples of players very early in the downswing (or at the top of the backswing), many of whom have begun sliding their hips forward…

Snead slid his hips forward like virtually every other golfer.

Please understand that you can't just "say" things you think are true. Please consider where Snead's left hip is in both photos here:

It's left of the thick line in the left photo, and right of it in the right photo. Forward.

Here's a little model/graphic based on some data I've seen and/or helped compile. It's an approximation of a fairly typical PGA Tour player's swing with a mid-iron. The oval is somewhat representative of the hip girdle (just below the waist, etc.; sorry, no butt cheeks or anything) and the dots represent the left hip socket, right hip socket, and center of the hip girdle.

What we can see here is that while the left hip does indeed move backward slightly from the farthest point it gets forward (around A6 here, and typically at about this point in good players), the center of the hips continue forward slightly. Most of the "sliding" of the hips forward occurs before A7 (impact), but part of that is simply due to the amount of time: it's short between A6 and A7 and longer from A4 to A5 or A5 to A6.

What issues, if any, do you have with this graphic?

Again, so I'm clear: there is a deliberate slide/bump forward (toward the target) of the hips in the downswing, though it is rarely as much as in the video (which, again, is not talking about the sliding portion, but rather, the turning portion).

Squatting (increasing the flex) actually serves to relieve or reduce the pressure into the ground. It's extending, as with the trail knee in the backswing, or the front knee in the late downswing, that increases force/pressure.

I'm not interested in talking about the video frame. For the last time, it's an exaggeration, a feel, and not even the topic of the video.

You're just using words here like a "firm left side" and so on. Did you look at the photos I posted? Maybe you missed them because they were in a spoiler. Good golfers slide their hips forward. This is the topic of this thread.

Sliding the hips forward was not the topic of the video, which was to say that as you slide your hips forward you must also TURN to open them up.

As noted above, squatting would actually reduce pressure in that instant. It is a way to store potential energy to be used later by extending (you can't extend and push against the ground if you're already extended), but generally speaking, the trail knee regaining flex in the early downswing is part of the reason why the force shifts forward, because it is reduced under the trail foot as the trail knee increases in flex. Simple physics.

You touched  so many different aspects that I don't know where to start. Well, I  just want to say that usually as a forum reader I basically jump those longs articulated debates between writers. I don't understand them and I get bored by. Often simplicity is what I am looking for, that's why all the jargon you dislike. I would prefer to split my answer in several quotes, so to speak, but would that be any different ? You are asking me facts,proves without running away from your questions. Let me tell you clearly that I read all your point and spent some time analysing them. I didn't know your role in the forum nor in the website itself. I have no secret intentions and I apologise to you and Co.  if in my really first post I left a short undeserved reply to a video that has taken hard work by several of you. I have no intention to diminish your knowledge and ideas. I am sure the majority of your student are improving or have improved following your ideas.

I am not in the business as a teacher, coach, pro, guru or whatever else exists out there. I jus love the game and look forward to improve my knowledge day by day. I have spent several hours on this website as a visitor in the last 5 years and I want to congratulate with you all for the great job done !

Now, back to business: I still keep my ideas as per previous posts. No hips slide just hips turn. Best ball strikers squat at the beginning of transition and don't slide.

World Scientific Congress of Golf

I remind you that I quoted several publications to you and a related diagram representing the seconds (time). In those few lines were indicated the clubs used as well and you had all the tools to do your research if interested.

But I got  answers from you as :" The chart presents more questions than it answers. Chief among those are "what is a "slow" or a "fast" weight transfer?" Which golfers were used in this study? What clubs were they hitting ?

Did you read it or not ? If yes, why did you ask me which clubs.Is the World Scientific Congress  of Golf a bunch of nobodies writing old myths as me ?

References:

-Proceedings of the XXth International Symposium on Biomechanics in Sports (pp.192-195). Spain:Universidad de Extremadura

-Different centre of pressure patterns within the golf stroke II: Group–based analysis. Journal of Sports Sciences

-Ground reaction forces and torques of professional and amateur golfers . In: Cochran, A.J. & Farrally M.R. (Eds) Science and Golf II. Proceedings. of the World Scientific Congress of Golf

-The role of biomechanics in maximising distance and accuracy of golf shots. Sports Medicine,

- The biomechanics of the shoe-ground interaction in golf.

-Discrete pressure profiles of the feet and weight transfer patterns during the golf swing. Cochran, A.J. & Farrally, M.R. (Eds). Science and Golf II. Proceedings of the World Scientific Congress of Golf.

Another answer was: " As I said, we love to discuss things here. We like to be shown that we're wrong because we're of a scientific mind and approach here at TST. Being wrong and being shown why presents an instant opportunity to upgrade knowledge, and we LOVE tha t"

Sam Snead pictures

Hips forward or rotating ?

Welcome to my modest garage.I first  tried to place my camera with a similar angle view as the pictures of Sam Snead with the green line above. So slightly forward (30 degrees). Than I made the hips with a piece of wood and inserted a drill bit in the left hip side.The drill itself is mounted on a vice. Clearly the vice and the drill  can not move forwardl

I copy-paste what you told me:" Please understand that you can't just "say" things you think are true. Please consider where Snead's left hip is in both photos here.I t's left of the thick line in the left photo, and right of it in the right photo. Forward.

So my Question to you is : Has Jimmy moved forward or just rotated around his left hip ?

I spent 10 minutes to prepare all of this and I agree with you that is not a modern way to explain tv angle views. I looked on the net for cad 4d animation but I couldn't find anyone I really liked.

The closest one was a 4d roulette project : a camera vision slightly forward.

Pick a number (like black 33). Has moved forward or just rotated ?

If anyone can prove me wrong on these subject let me know. If you agree with the "illusion" of moving forward while just rotating than I will post all the other answer you requested to me.

Let sink this in first

[Vinsk]

I don't think any evidence will prove you wrong because you have a completely confabulated ideology of physics. It would be like trying to prove to a Scientologist his "e-meter" does not measure "thetans". Good luck to you.

[HawkNballs]

Wow. Those are the creepiest demonstation pics ever. Hahahaha more golf nightmares for me!

[Vinsk]

Reminds of ole Joe Hill who presented his triangular theory using "pencil man" and cardboard. It was about as nonsensical as this one. But it's a mess, it's really hard to discuss with the likes of 32quattro. They don't mean any harm or Ill will, but they truly believe their false ideology of physics. Even if we show him hundreds of video from a straight on view showing hip slide he'll comprise some bizarre rebuttal that satisfied HIS perception of optics/physics. Probably a nice guy but like Joe...just not really productive to discuss technical issues with.

[billchao]

The closest one was a 4d roulette project : a camera vision slightly forward.

Pick a number (like black 33). Has moved forward or just rotated ?

This comparison to the hips in the golf swing is flawed. You're drawing a vertical line inside the roulette wheel and showing that 33 black looks like it's moving forward despite it actually just rotating. The problem is, the pictures in the OP are measured from the outside of the left hip, then the entire pelvis crosses that line. That's indicative of a lateral movement of the pelvis.

To bring it back to your roulette wheel, a more apt comparison would be to look at the handles of the spindle. The green line is drawn to the outside of that in the first picture, then the handle appears to have shifted backwards laterally in the second. That's pure rotation.

And your demonstration with the doll, besides being a little creepy, is flawed, too. Snead didn't just rotate about his left hip. If he did, he also would have had to step towards the ball significantly during his swing. You took some pictures to try to illustrate your point, but you didn't include other relevant angles (like DTL, for example, where it would be quite obvious that the doll's "pelvis" would be moving incorrectly towards the ball). Really, try it. Don't even do a golf swing, just stand up straight and rotate purely about your left hip. You'd do this on a posted left leg and your right side would swing all the way around you.

[Vinsk]

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/Dfxe4cjihVM[/VIDEO] @32quattro This is a straight on view of Adam Scott. 1. Do you agree this is a straight on view of Adam Scott. Do you agree this is not a bizarre camera angle? 2. Focus on his left hip right in his belt if you will. You CANNOT tell me his entire pelvis does not move forward (towards target) as well as rotate. If you can't see the FORWARD SLIDE of his pelvis then you simply are not eligible to discuss this. Period.

[timbamania]

I've read most of the thread, hoping to finally get my downswing sorted out. Tried the following at home without a ball (no range for me fro the next few days unfortunately):

- at A4 I use my legs to move my hips forward, keeping flex in the left leg. It feels like my hips are about neutral at A6, maybe a bit open;

- at A6 I try to push my belly button towards the target and up towards the sky. This quickly opens my hips, brings my left shoulder up and launches the arms.

It feels like I can increase clubhead speed by making the belly forward/up move more aggressive, and have more control by keeping it in check somewhat.

Is this forward and up move with my belly button something you approve, or would it lead to problems?

[Jeremie Boop]

I've read most of the thread, hoping to finally get my downswing sorted out. Tried the following at home without a ball (no range for me fro the next few days unfortunately):

- at A4 I use my legs to move my hips forward, keeping flex in the left leg. It feels like my hips are about neutral at A6, maybe a bit open;

- at A6 I try to push my belly button towards the target and up towards the sky. This quickly opens my hips, brings my left shoulder up and launches the arms.

It feels like I can increase clubhead speed by making the belly forward/up move more aggressive, and have more control by keeping it in check somewhat.

Is this forward and up move with my belly button something you approve, or would it lead to problems?

If it's any help this is what I'm doing to work on key 1. I fashioned an aid to have an alignment stick that is stuck at an angle into the ground and end next to my head. I then take swings keeping my head from touching the alignment stick. There is already a video of this drill that @mvmac has that you can use 5SK® Key #1: Steady Head on the Downswing . But as you can see by my picture here, it makes an immediate impact on position and weight transfer for me.

[Mr. Desmond]

Who invited Chuckie to join the board?

[iacas]

I'm on vacation and teaching today so I can't respond in depth, but I absolutely do not agree with the "illusion" as presented. I consider this much much closer to fact and have 3D biomechanical data and such that show that the hips (girdle) absolutely slide forward, toward the target. They don't just rotate. Again sorry so short. If the thread hadn't moved on much in a few days, I'll respond in more depth. Until then, @32quattro , my oval graphic deserves a lot more consideration.

[Ernest Jones]

Sweet mother of god, that's some weird as shit up there ^^^^^^^.

[Jeremie Boop]

Sweet mother of god, that's some weird as shit up there ^^^^^^^.

Hey man, I'm not that weird!

[colin007]

Hey man, I'm not that weird!

That's not what your mother said.... :-) :-P

[saevel25]

The closest one was a 4d roulette project : a camera vision slightly forward.

Pick a number (like black 33). Has moved forward or just rotated ?

If anyone can prove me wrong on these subject let me know. If you agree with the "illusion" of moving forward while just rotating than I will post all the other answer you requested to me.

Let sink this in first

Umm, the human body is not a roulette wheel. A roulette wheel turns on a single axis. The hips does rotate around the spine, but you have to consider there are two off-set ball and socket joints from the central axis.

Hip slide is not an illusion, it actually happens.

Sweet mother of god, that's some weird as shit up there ^^^^^^^.

Some demented doll torture chamber.

[32quattro]

I'm on vacation and teaching today so I can't respond in depth, but I absolutely do not agree with the "illusion" as presented. I consider this much much closer to fact and have 3D biomechanical data and such that show that the hips (girdle) absolutely slide forward, toward the target. They don't just rotate.

Again sorry so short. If the thread hadn't moved on much in a few days, I'll respond in more depth. Until then, @32quattro, my oval graphic deserves a lot more consideration.

Take your time. I don't need an answer in depth.I need just your answer at the specific question I made if you don't mind. I already prepared  my answers to you including the oval graphic ( 20 + pictures and golf videos footage) but then I  thought that if we don't start from a common ground (as prospective/camera angle) again is not worth it the effort.

Referring to the specific Sam Snead pictures where you draw a line you said: :" Please understand that you can't just "say" things you think are true. Please consider where Snead's left hip is in both photos here.I t's left of the thick line in the left photo, and right of it in the right photo. Forward.

Q. : Has Jimmy moved forward or just rotated around his left hip ? or Does it appears that Jimmy is moving forward of the green line while rotating ?

It is not important if the doll is rotating on the left hip,middle,or right side, around his head or whatever. The point is from a particular camera angle a rotating object can appear moving forward if a green line is crossing it ( as Sam Snead portion of the body left and right of the green line )

I

[32quattro]

This is a straight on view of Adam Scott.

1. Do you agree this is a straight on view of Adam Scott. Do you agree this is not a bizarre camera angle?

2. Focus on his left hip right in his belt if you will. You CANNOT tell me his entire pelvis does not move forward (towards target) as well as rotate. If you can't see the FORWARD SLIDE of his pelvis then you simply are not eligible to discuss this. Period.

Thanks for your video of Adam Scott. Great guy, great player.

I answer your questions:

1.Yes.Yes.

2. It is more complicated than just watching a front view video to define if he actively forward slide from the hips.

You are not paying attention but just cutting short to conclusion. Luke Donald and other very good players on Tour do slide forward in purpose and then turn . Never said doesn't happen.

Is it the only way ? I don't think so. Is it the best way ? I don't think so. 90% of Tour players are  actively sliding forward the hips ? I don't think so.

If you paid attention I said

"I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it. I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side. It is a totally different move allowing to generate a more powerfull momentum. To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted."

Then @iacas marked a line on Sam Snead and I am stuck there. There's no way around . First we define that picture than we can carry on.

[mvmac]

Is it the only way ? I don't think so. Is it the best way ? I don't think so. 90% of Tour players are  actively sliding forward the hips ? I don't think so.

Good players slide their hips forward as they rotate. This is 101 stuff and not really up for debate, it's been confirmed by 3D measurements of many tour players.