The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, 70sSanO said:

Tennis serve slide.

I have really been struggling with the proper downswing sequence and couldn't quite get it put together.  Every now and then I would try to incorporate a slide, but initiating it with the left heel, left knee, right knee, or inside of the right foot, lifting the right heel, or pushing off the right foot just didn't work.

It then occurred to me that I have been bumping/sliding my hips forward on every tennis serve without giving it a thought.  It also occurred to me that a number of "principles" were "similar" in both, though the movements are obviously not identical.  The weight shifts and not rotating the shoulders come to mind; at least in my mind.

So far it is a work in progress, and it doesn't feel right at times, but overall my shots are so much cleaner; and with less effort.  Timing is so important and elusive.  I'm not sure if I'll need to change it up a bit as time goes on, but I don't even think of the sequence or turning in the downswing anymore as it just happens.

Just thought I'd share.

John

I fully admit i’m not well versed in biomechanics but I cannot see how a tennis serve is even remotely comparable to a golf swing. The ball is at the complete opposite position of a golf ball. The goal in golf is to get the ball airborne, tennis serve is airborne to ground and nobody serves a tennis ball with two hands. Am I right or is my utter lack of proprioception talking here?

[70sSanO]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I fully admit i’m not well versed in biomechanics but I cannot see how a tennis serve is even remotely comparable to a golf swing. The ball is at the complete opposite position of a golf ball. The goal in golf is to get the ball airborne, tennis serve is airborne to ground and nobody serves a tennis ball with two hands. Am I right or is my utter lack of proprioception talking here?

My only swing thought is to Try and incorporate the slide into my golf swing as it is something I’ve done for decades serving.

As for similarities it’s academic if I’m swinging up at a tennis ball or down at a golf ball... weight shift, head and shoulder back, going straight up for the ball instead of turning my shoulders.  But I’m not suggesting someone take a tennis serve and just swing down.  That would be stupid.

John

[aaguirr]

While I don't disagree that any good swing requires some hip slide/lateral movement, for me it's the thought of rotating the hips to start the downswing that makes the lateral movement of the hips and weight shift to the lead foot happen automatically. This might just be a matter of feel versus what's really happening in the sequence of the swing, but for me this thought doesn't fail me. I don't know that I would have the same results if my main swing thought was to begin the downswing by "sliding" my hips. Just my two cents.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, aaguirr said:

makes the lateral movement of the hips and weight shift to the lead foot happen automatically

Well, good, but the article is for those who don't see this happen automatically. 🙂

[billchao]

1 hour ago, aaguirr said:

While I don't disagree that any good swing requires some hip slide/lateral movement, for me it's the thought of rotating the hips to start the downswing that makes the lateral movement of the hips and weight shift to the lead foot happen automatically. This might just be a matter of feel versus what's really happening in the sequence of the swing, but for me this thought doesn't fail me. I don't know that I would have the same results if my main swing thought was to begin the downswing by "sliding" my hips. Just my two cents.

Everybody has different feels and automatic movements. That’s why it’s important to identify what is actually happening versus what a person feels is happening.

Hogan wrote that he felt as if his left hip was being pulled open by a band at the top of the backswing. In reality he had one of the best lateral slides of all time. If people followed strictly what Hogan said he did, most people would end up spinning out with their weight over their trail foot.

[Jbarretta]

Found this old thread on google and needed to post.  I'm a high handicapper usually shoot around high 80's to low 90's.  Just played a round and focused on sliding forwarded as much as I can and keeping trail foot planted at impact.  At impact front knee is bent but i have no chicken wing at all.  On video it looks like a moe norman swing.  Shot my all time low 80!  I need some feedback from iacas!

[Vinsk]

Going to be a bit difficult from the pics you posted. A face on view in sequence of the full swing In slow motion would help. I see possible sliding but minimal rotation of the hips.

Also, if you want to get a response from a member you need to use the ‘@‘ symbol then start typing the member’s name:

@iacas

[Jbarretta]

thank you @Vinsk

i couldnt upload to this forum, i uploaded to youtube

 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, Jbarretta said:

thank you @Vinsk

i couldnt upload to this forum, i uploaded to youtube

https://youtu.be/fzw0mpOSyPo

It would be better if you started a My Swing thread in the Member Swings section and posted the video there.

[iacas]

Yeah, look, follow what @boogielicious said and start a Member Swing topic, but basically:

• The stance is probably a bit wide.
• I think you can turn more on the backswing. The wide stance inhibits that.
• The knee thing, definitely have to work on that, but it's "mostly" post-impact, so it's not affecting you as much as it looks like. But it's still not the best, and will put strains on parts of your body that don't need it, and some of it's pre-impact, and so on.

[ncates00]

Is the hip “slide” still valid today? The reason I ask is because the Athletic Motion guys and GEARS data appear to indicate that the hips do not slide on the downswing. Rather, the entire body moves forward due to increasing pressure onto the front foot while the club is still going to the top. The AM guys have a video about it, and I believe they called it “falling into your front side” for a “downhill” hit, again, while you’re still taking the club back. 
 

Therefore, they argue, it’s not a hip “slide.” The hips are forward because you have moved forward, but in the downswing, you begin to extend and that extension causes the upper body to move back some, while the hips remain more forward. Apparently, the falling into your lead side and subsequent extension gives it the appearance, at impact and post-impact, that the hips have slid forward, but they actually have not slid forward. They showed GEARS data to show how much in inches both the upper body center and pelvis center have moved, and the data appears to support their idea. 
 

Thoughts? 

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Is the hip “slide” still valid today? The reason I ask is because the Athletic Motion guys and GEARS data appear to indicate that the hips do not slide on the downswing. Rather, the entire body moves forward due to increasing pressure onto the front foot while the club is still going to the top. The AM guys have a video about it, and I believe they called it “falling into your front side” for a “downhill” hit, again, while you’re still taking the club back. 

Eh, I feel like this is semantics. 

If you compare it to address, draw a line vertical at the left hip, the hips are more forward than at address. Now, the body has rotated as well. Overall, things are moving forward in the downswing.

We do know that in the kinematic sequence, things work from the ground up. In transition, the hips start rotating first. In the backswing the left pocket (for right handed) will be rotated towards the ball (away from the target). It will need to rotate towards the target in transition, probably at least back to address position at minimum. I think it just tends to go more forward than at address. I am just imagining how that point moves in 3D space. 

I am not sure how far forward the upper center of your body has shift forward. The head stays steady. So it moves away and towards the target by some, but with in the realm of steady. 

If you want to call it weight forward, pressure increased under front foot and your center mass moving forward, that is fair. It may not be a good "feel" to say that the hips slide for golfers. 

For me, I like right side through, right shoulder out towards ball, left hip goes back and up. I feel much less hips forward stuff because I tended to do it way to much and have my upper center hang back. My head use to fall backwards a ton. Mostly because I was stuck in the downswing and it gave me time in the swing. 

10 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

They showed GEARS data to show how much in inches both the upper body center and pelvis center have moved, and the data appears to support their idea.

Is this their own swings, or a large sample size of PGA Tour players? 

 

[ncates00]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Eh, I feel like this is semantics. 

I disagree because just sliding your hips forward vs falling into your lead side are not the same thing. 

 

7 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Is this their own swings, or a large sample size of PGA Tour players? 

Data from Tour players. 

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I am not sure how far forward the upper center of your body has shift forward. The head stays steady. So it moves away and towards the target by some, but with in the realm of steady. 

They show GEARS data of Tour players of how much, in inches, the head, upper center, and center of pelvis moves. All of them move forward, and not just forward from where it moves back, but forward of even where they were at address. 

[saevel25]

Just now, ncates00 said:

I disagree because just sliding your hips forward vs falling into your lead side are not the same thing. 

I do think it is.

1) Lets say you are looking from data were starting point zero is when transition starts and ending point is when the hands start moving down. You can measure the point of your left hip pocket relative to the start of the swing, at the transition point, and at the end of transition point. 

2) You can measure the hips relative to when the upper center starts moving. 

Again, I think it is semantics. It's based on when you want to measure it, how you want to measure it. We are talking about the definition of hip movement and how it is measured. Basically, they are taking the point of redefining the measurement so it fits the claim that the hips don't slide. That is at least how I read what you wrote. 

[iacas]

@ncates00 just because the upper body slides forward too doesn’t mean the hips don’t slide.

They both side forward. The hips continue to slide forward longer.

The re-centering move is over before A5.

[ncates00]

@saevel25 and @iacas, Yeah, that makes sense. I suppose y’all are referring to continuing to slide and rotate after you fall into your lead side/re-center—am I correct? Because now that I think about , if you got your trail hip higher than your lead hip, and then do the re-centering move, your hips are in a good spot to continue pushing forward through the shot  

If you keep sliding forward, wouldn’t that make it hard to push up off your front foot/extend? I don’t think pushing forward would make it hard to rotate so long as you got your trail hip higher than the lead hip in the backswing and then fall into your left. 

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

@saevel25 and @iacas, Yeah, that makes sense. I suppose y’all are referring to continuing to slide and rotate after you fall into your lead side/re-center—am I correct? Because now that I think about , if you got your trail hip higher than your lead hip, and then do the re-centering move, your hips are in a good spot to continue pushing forward through the shot  

If you keep sliding forward, wouldn’t that make it hard to push up off your front foot/extend? I don’t think pushing forward would make it hard to rotate so long as you got your trail hip higher than the lead hip in the backswing and then fall into your left. 

No. The opposite. You get the lead hip over the lead ankle so it can help you turn and push up. If it stays back you’d be pushing yourself backward.

[Big Lex]

On 3/11/2019 at 11:48 AM, iacas said:

All else being equal (which is virtually never the case), rotation will tend to steepen a swing while sliding the hips forward tends to shallow it. Rotation carries the hands outward more, moving the hips forward more tends to let them drop and stay deeper longer (the added axis tilt lowers the right side). 

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This very excellent post succinctly explains what is so wrong about my swing. My s.o. recorded my swing yesterday. I have been hitting the ball decently lately (for me); shot a 79 at Watchung Valley the other day. But I have been fighting hooks... On the video (maybe I'll start a my swing post), the backswing looks fine and then I start moving forward but I don't move very much and then I stall. My hands never get very deep, or drop much. The action looks a bit better with a wedge but with a driver the club moves from the top too much too soon without dropping. The wrist/club angle starts opening up too soon in the downswing. It looks weak and ugly and I don't like looking at it  

I think I will start working on my hip and leg movement in the transition and downswing. Getting the center of my pelvis over the left ankle. 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Big Lex