The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[clubhousehero]

I've read most of this thread so far and its some interesting stuff. I was trying to avoid it because i didn't want to mess my swing up with conflicting theories and different swing thoughts.

Anyway, i didn't get to a range before i tee-d off for the first time this year and felt HORRIBLE warming up. like i've never swung a club before. So i decided to keep it simple stupid and hit the ball great!

Couple days later i go to the range before a round and worked on what i stumbled upon. Again great results on the range and course. Hit a nice push draw all day except for the push on the first tee. I ended up playing 2 of my best rounds with hardly any range time or practice with my new swing.

I later go to my GF's house and talk with her dad who is an avid golfer. Anyway i tell him about my swing changes and he tells me they are very S&T like and that he was reading the book and making similer changes himself. Thats why i finally looked here.

Anyway what i do is play the ball back of center in my stance with my hands in-front of the ball and my weight centered. (driver and 3h are about centered though) Take the club back to the inside with my shoulders and i try and keep my arms real close to my body and little to no weight shift. Then i just kinda swing with my arms and body almost at the same time.

So far things have worked out pretty well but i am wondering what if any disadvantages could their be with my swing the way it is? What advantages could S&T have over what i'm doing? How similar are they?

[iacas]

Anyway what i do is play the ball back of center in my stance with my hands in-front of the ball and my weight centered. (driver and 3h are about centered though) Take the club back to the inside with my shoulders and i try and keep my arms real close to my body and little to no weight shift. Then i just kinda swing with my arms and body almost at the same time.

Small corrections... You'll want to adjust your ball position. Center of the stance for a wedge, left heel or so for a driver is still pretty much the standard. Nothing back of center. Weight 55/45 or so left.

Also, the club doesn't go back to the inside, the hands do - they trace the arc of the inclined plane and move back, up, and IN. Increase the pressure between your left arm and chest, and keep the logo on the back of your glove pointing down at the ball to keep the clubface square to the inclined plane.

[DannyG]

Great interview on Charlie Rose with Golf instructors Mike Bennett & Andy Plummer, authors of

In this interview Andy Plummer starts by talking about how important it is to understand the flight path before anything else yet they don't address it until far into the book, starting on page 119. I find their explanation a little confusing (it doesn't help that I'm a lefty and have to mentally switch the words left and right when reading.) Has anyone seen a better illustration or video of their explanation?

[Zeph]

The Ball Flight Laws
Definitive Club Face Angle & Swing Path on Ball Flight Thread


It's pretty simple really, doesn't matter if you are right or left handed. On any swing you got two angles at impact. The angle of the club face and the angle of the swing path.

If both are identical, the ball will fly straight.
If the ball curves to the left, that means the swing path angle was to the right of the club face angle.
If the ball curves to the right, that means the swing path angle was to the left of the club face angle.

You can achieve the above by either having the swing path move to the left or right, or the club face angle. Only difference between right handed and left handed is the terms used. For a lefty, a swing going in-to-out means the club goes to the left, out-to-in will go right. Vica versa for a right handed.

Only thing you need to know other than that is that the initial direction of the ball, ie. where it will start, is determined 100-80% by the club face angle. Which means that if the club is swung across the ball, causing it to curve in either direction, the ball will start somewhere around 80-100% in the direction of the club face angle, depending on the angle between the club face and swing path, and the effective loft of the club used.

[alisdair]

In this interview Andy Plummer starts by talking about how important it is to understand the flight path before anything else yet they don't address it until far into the book, starting on page 119.

I think what they're saying is that it's more important that your instructor knows the flight path laws than anything else, not that you as a player should learn them first. Far too often you'll see teaching pros give absolutely wrong advice due to their misunderstanding of what causes the initial direction of the ball. If you're trying to fix someone's swing, you must first make sure that you're correctly diagnosing the problem.

[clubhousehero]

Small corrections... You'll want to adjust your ball position. Center of the stance for a wedge, left heel or so for a driver is still pretty much the standard. Nothing back of center. Weight 55/45 or so left.

Thanks. I went to the range yesterday, made the corrections you said and and on the first swing i hit the absolute best 7i i've ever hit in my life! Not only was it the furthest 7i i've ever (a good 10 -15 yards) about hit but it was the highest too. Then i don't think i hit a good ball after that. Haha. Thats the way it is sometimes i guess. Will def. keep working on it.

[Tenerife]

As a follow-up to my own question: video showed me that my problem is my stubborn tendency to roll my wrists through impact. I've corrected my right-hand grip back to neutral and I'm working on holding the face square (well, slightly open) to the path.

Alisdair Mike and Andy have just done a Clinic in Bedforshire a long way from you I know and to late, but if you are interested they did it in conjuction with James Ridyard from golfperformancelabs.com who are based in Bedfordshire and is a S&T friendly pro. He can be contacted at jaridyard@googlemail.com i managed to get the DVD set from him which i found to be invaluable. hope this helps.

[isampark]

Hi, I recently began to apply S&T swing techniques (got DVD and Book).
I tried to summarize the ball flight path and ways to control it by setup as discussed in "Shaping the Shot" DVD.

I believe the summary below is best explained for irons, since the instruction was involving Mike hitting various iron shots.

I would like people here to :

1) provide feedback on my summary below - anything to be added, corrected, or removed
2) how the summary below would change for longer clubs? (3W, Driver, etc)



To hit it straight
1. Keep center of weight (center of shoulder) above the ball
---- a. This puts the point of tangency at the ball
2. Face of the club slightly open
---- a. This is due to the circular motion of hand and club

To hit draw
1. Keep center of weight (center of shoulder) in front of the ball
---- a. This puts the point of tangency ahead of the ball
---- b. This results in the impact position before the path reaches tangency
---- c. Induces in-to-out swing path
2. Face of the club slightly open or square at the target
---- a. Face at the impact decides the starting path of the ball
-------- i. If the face was open, it will start to the right
-------- ii. If the face was square, it will start at the target
3. Therefore, in order to start the ball to the right and then draw the ball back to target
---- a. Point of tangency ahead of the ball
---- b. Face open to the target line
---- c. The degree of face openness should be less than the hand path for the draw spin to kick in
-------- i. If the degree of face openness is equal or greater than the hand path, it will result in straight-push or push-slice.

To hit fade
1. Keep center of weight (center of shoulder) behind the ball
---- a. This puts the point of tangency behind the ball
---- b. This results in the impact position after the path reaches tangency
---- c. Induces out-to-in swing path
2. Face of the club should be square to the target or slightly closed
---- a. Face at the impact decides the starting path of the ball
-------- i. If the face was square, it will start at the target – then curve right
-------- ii. If the face was closed, it will start left – then curve right
3. Therefore, in order to start the ball to the left and then fade the ball back to target
---- a. Point of tangency behind the ball
---- b. Face closed to the target line
---- c. The degree of face closeness should be less than the hand path for the fade spin to kick in
-------- i. If the degree of face closeness is equal or greater than the hand path, it will result in straight-pull or pull-hook

[Stretch]

I've been studying up on S&T recently and took the few key points gleaned so far to the range yesterday. Have to say I noticed an immediate improvement in my ball striking and (particularly) turf interaction. Think I'm somewhat aided by the fact that I had very little lateral weight shift in my "regular" swing to begin with. From a range-of-motion perspective, as a tall guy the portion of the swing after contact seems to be the tough bit for me. I really have to think hard about left hip/left heel.

Thanks to all the participants in this thread. It is very useful to someone new to the philosophy.

[i-Guy]

I was just wodnering if anyone posting to this thread found that when they converted to the S&T; did the way they approach the short game (chipping and pitching) change as well...what I mean is that I have always focused keeping my weight on my left side when hitting chip or pitchs but I have found myself recently kind of doing a mini S&T; on pitch shots especially but it seems to be evident in my chipping as well...I am curious myself if I had been doing this all along in my short game and did not realize it becuase I was not a S&T; guy back then but had a solid short game???

[iacas]

I was just wodnering if anyone posting to this thread found that when they converted to the S&T did the way they approach the short game (chipping and pitching) change as well...what I mean is that I have always focused keeping my weight on my left side when hitting chip or pitchs but I have found myself recently kind of doing a mini S&T on pitch shots especially but it seems to be evident in my chipping as well...I am curious myself if I had been doing this all along in my short game and did not realize it becuase I was not a S&T guy back then but had a solid short game???

"Weight on the left side" is a common technique for chips, pitches, putting, bunker play... and all of the short game.

[i-Guy]

"Weight on the left side" is a common technique for chips, pitches, putting, bunker play... and all of the short game.

I understand that...maybe I did not express myself correctly...what I am saying is that not only am I staying on my left side (like you should in the short game) I am actually finding myself straightening my right leg, taking the club more inside and tilting my left shoulder...kind of like a mini verison of my S&T full swing...again I am chipping pretty good so I can only imagine I may have been doing this before I switched to the S&T for my full swing but did not think about these moves before...I was just wondering if anyone else had experienced this when switching to the S&T, in that a mini version of their full swing crept into their short game??? Clear as mud?

[isampark]

Hi, I recently began to apply S&T swing techniques (got DVD and Book).

Not to bump my own post, but can someone help me identify correct way to use S&T with longer clubs?

[boogielicious]

I think it applies to all clubs including woods and driver. Mike and Andy didn't make a distinction in either the book or the DVDs. For me, the key is finding where my swing circle is tangent to the target line, then moving the ball in my stance accordingly.

For my driver, if i put the ball at my left heel, the flight will go straight to slight fade with a correct swing. If I move it back a ball width, it will start to draw. For my 3 and 5 woods and hybrids, I set up a ball width back from my left heel and get a draw. For 5 - 7i, I set up 2-3 ball widths back. I practice this using alignment sticks at the range.

The hard part for me is combining this with different lies and slopes of the fairway. Those are tough to practice because the range is flat.

[steve_sieracki]

here is a swing of mike hitting a driver

[mvmac]

I understand that...maybe I did not express myself correctly...what I am saying is that not only am I staying on my left side (like you should in the short game) I am actually finding myself straightening my right leg, taking the club more inside and tilting my left shoulder...kind of like a mini verison of my S&T full swing...again I am chipping pretty good so I can only imagine I may have been doing this before I switched to the S&T for my full swing but did not think about these moves before...I was just wondering if anyone else had experienced this when switching to the S&T, in that a mini version of their full swing crept into their short game??? Clear as mud?

I definitely try to keep the wedge more with my short game than before. My stock chip shot is what Andy and Mike perscribe on the DVD, I stand closer to the ball, raise the handle, weight 90% left and keep the handle forward. Club head moves more in line than the full swing. For pitch shots, just a shorter version of the full swing, except with more weight left at set-up.

Not to bump my own post, but can someone help me identify correct way to use S&T with longer clubs?

Same principles with longer clubs. Maybe push the forward hip a little more towards the target for the driver.

[colin007]

question about hip turn - im pretty flexible and have no problem getting to the 90 shoulder turn without too much hip rotation. should i still be doing the pronounced hip rotation in combination with less shoulder turn as prescribed by the S&T? or can i get away with less hip turn and more shoulder turn?

[Zeph]

question about hip turn - im pretty flexible and have no problem getting to the 90 shoulder turn without too much hip rotation. should i still be doing the pronounced hip rotation in combination with less shoulder turn as prescribed by the S&T;? or can i get away with less hip turn and more shoulder turn?

Yes. The hips should rotate about 45º if I recall correctly, you should also straighten the right knee. Not so far that it locks, but as far as you get without locking it.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ostis?p=444774 The energy transferred to the golf ball is a result of momentum from the golf club on the downswing. It is not a result of the body winding and spring down like a coil. Make a backswing without straining to keep the knees flexed or preventing the hips turning. From the top, the hips should lead ever so slightly, but the arms will start down almost at the same time, together they move down and forward through the ball.