The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

So the feeling in the takeaway should be hands in...is it really more like hands under?  maybe this is just how it feels to me now since i am changing to this from a more hands around  takeaway and swing...

Hands in, hands under.... not really fond of either of those. Really your hands will go "in" more yes, but they're just going on the plane. Virtually everyone takes them "out" and "up" or "above," so feeling the opposite is one thing. Actually DOING the opposite to an extreme would be bad.

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

and i guess this would help with the inline...more CP... release?  and would it make sense that in the adjustment period i could be coming back with the hands under but from muscle memory coming down with my hands more around?

Tough to say, frankly. If your hands are deeper than they've ever been odds are that they're going to be more in the entire way down as well. They might still kick out over the top a bit but they'll be more in than when they were out and then over. Better to be "in and over" than "out and over" if you know what I mean.

The release you'll get to later...

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

and why would i be hitting the ball way on the heel of my driver?  how far away should i stand from the ball?  should i lineup my hands under my eyes like i did with my old swing or should i just have my arms straight down?

Tough to say without seeing your stance...

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

and the other thing that feels funny is to have my hands farther forward than a totally neutral ball position... is there a correct way in the s and t system..involving the hands and shaft lean at the setup?

Whatever works for you. Hands forward a little bit is the "stock" position but we've had people who have them farther forward and farther back. Depends on how you get back to impact more than your setup (though setup can contribute to some various loading rates).

[westcyderydin]

alright, thanks a lot...i know i was probly a little bit of a dick about this stuff before, but once i looked into the s and t swing and all the peices and ideas make a lot of sense and i really like how theyve worked  so far...with the swing problems i was trying to eliminate and all.  still early in the process..but first day of actual golf.

as far as impact position compared to setup...i feel like i am much farther forward at impact than i was at address....and i have a tenedency to be pretty steep from what i can tell so far... so i am seeing how it works to keep my hands and the clubhead pretty even..with the shaft vertical as my stock setup position.  where it gets more interesting is with the driver.  or with the FW or hybrids when i feel like i am going to be too steep and i try to move the ball forward.

i think the next thing im going to focus on is keeping my head from moving forward before impact...i dk if i do move it or not but im going to check that.

but this is only a bunch of words without video... so take it as you wish haha.

any northerners get out and play yet?  a little cold but this was day 1 for a couple of us in southwest michigan...fun time.

[Zeph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

So the feeling in the takeaway should be hands in...is it really more like hands under?  maybe this is just how it feels to me now since i am changing to this from a more hands around  takeaway and swing...

Best tip I can give is to use a camera and/or a mirror to work on your hands path. Actually seeing the path while swinging is very useful. Position the mirror behind you, make backswings while looking into the mirror. Once you get the hands on a good path, remember the feeling and keep doing some slow swings. The difficult part is doing enough repetitions to make it stick.

Good thread here : Deep Hands Explained

Blue line is backswing, red line is downswing.

A lot of amateur golfers combine these two swings, creating a move over the top. Imagine going back the path Tiger does and swing down the path Charlie does, keeping the same relationship to the backswing. It is a natural thing to do, swinging on plane, not having to adjust it during the downswing, a better position at the top makes that easier. Making adjustments on the downswing is not what I would call a good idea. It involves a lot of timing and can be erratic. If you get in a good position at the top where you are on plane and ready to just fire everything, less things can go wrong, as simple as that. And no, you don't lose any power from a 10 inches shorter downswing. A lot of good players do the loop, but that doesn't mean it's easy. The ground theory behind S&T; is to make golf easier, especially for the average golfer.

Pick up a golf ball and throw it as far as you can. How did your hand move? I would think you took it back low, then threw it forward on a higher plane, not taking it back over your head and looping it down before going up again.

Quote: Ted Fort

The sooner you can get the club on that line in the downstroke, the lower your handicap.

Check out his video:

[Shindig]

92 today, after dropping a ton of shots on the short game;  most of my long game swing thoughts (and at the range the past week or so, after a two month absence) were the first four items from the basic form.  I still haven't been able to do arms straight consistently, even at the range, although when I had that thought on my driver today, I was blasting it (by my standards, anyway).  Maybe I should try a larger bucket, maybe tomorrow.

I'm really amazed at how quickly I was able to come back and post a decent score after absence.  I think a big part was the simplicity of S&T.;  I know if I had been on my previous model (is there a term for the other way?), I wouldn't have been able to break 100 today, given how much practice time and absence time I had.

[westcyderydin]

alright, that hands under thought was a horrible idea...time for me to stop thinking for myself for a little bit.  ima read through the book again.

it gets a little harder when you have to go out and make the adjustments than what it seems like in your head before the season starts. haha.  helped to get some camera shots but they arent ready to be on the internet..

[westcyderydin]

i pop up some time after impact.  my back heel comes up too early and my back leg comes forward into my followthrough.  i think this might make me move forward too early and get too steep... too big of divots with every club..3 wood on down.

now i am not one for swing thoughts, but i am ok with setup thoughts.

so is it alright to kinda keep the weight of my back foot on the heel for as long as possible?

[Hollister]

If it were that easy... Without a video or picts from P6 to P7 it is hard to give you advice. What are your hands doing (P6->7) - holding the flying wedge? If not, that could be a reason for fat shots, too. So, open up a my swing-thread.

[westcyderydin]

im holding the wedge.  i think it might be a case of early extension...im going to look up some threads on this..

[jmomcc]

Not sure if this has been asked yet but is it possible/a good idea to combine the early wrist break from 'the 4 magic moves' with stack and tilt? I want to give stack and tilt but have also been preytty intrigued by the that concept.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jmomcc

Not sure if this has been asked yet but is it possible/a good idea to combine the early wrist break from 'the 4 magic moves' with stack and tilt? I want to give stack and tilt but have also been preytty intrigued by the that concept.

Can you describe where and when the wrist break occurs (and what it is exactly) in 4MM?

[mvmac]

I think this is what he means

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instruction/full-swing/lessons/four-moves-to-stack-a-tilt.html

[Stretch]

Nope. He's talking about the Joe Dante "backward break."

http://www.golf-swing-magic.com/golf-backswing3.html

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Nope. He's talking about the Joe Dante "backward break."

Yeah, that's how I took it too.

We have lots of golfers who are what we'd call "in at 2" (clubhead inside hands/under plane) who then get the club on plane by the top of the backswing. We don't worry about these golfers so long as it's by P4 (top of the backswing). The trouble is that a lot of times golfers won't clean that up by the top of the backswing, and it will carry into the downswing.

In other words, if you can do it and still arrive at the top just fine with the hands and the clubhead pretty much on plane (and by on plane I don't mean crossing from under to over where it's "on plane" for one frame of video), go for it.

[DannyG]

“ The Stack and Tilt Swing” book by Bennett and Plummer has a great section describing the downswing. But there is a particular paragraph that I’m trying to get a better understanding of —

“When the club parallels the ground, hips are still moving laterally but the shoulder turn has started to slow down relative to the club, which allows the club to “turn the corner” into impact. This slowing down of the shoulders transfers speed to arms and then the club. This is a major element that experienced players use to accelerate the club into impact, like cracking a whip.”

I always envisioned my swing with my hands staying centered in front of my chest on the take away and the downswing. I know that doesn’t actually happen as the club reaches the top of the backswing, but the thought has always helped me on the downswing in that it helps me keep my shoulders square to the target line at impact. But what the above paragraph describes seems difficult to achieve. Not only to you have to have the hips sliding forward, you also have to start the shoulder turn and then slow it down and let the hands catch up? This must all happen in a micro-second.

Can someone explain this a little better and maybe describe what this feels like.

Thanks.

[mvmac]

I wouldn't put to much into that.  They are basically describing something that happens not something you need to "think" about. The arms and club are going faster because they are farther away from the center.

[boogielicious]

It is also describing the lag of the club as compared to the body turn.  With a good amount of lag, your hands are almost back to the starting postion with the club parallel to the ground.  Your shoulders are slowing down because they are coming to the end of their rotation.  The club is accelerating at this point like cracking a whip.  But this is all happening so fast, you really can't consciously follow it.

[Huntington]

Hello, I have been browsing these forums for some time now and have recently become interested in the Stack & Tilt golf swing. My book arrived yesterday and I have been nothing but confused since reading it. The first page where you are given any real instruction is page 14 and this is where it gets cloudy.

'Standing upright with your hands at your sides, tilt your upper body to the left so that your head moves outside your left leg - thats your spine tilt to the left on your backswing'

This completely contradicts the 'Stacked' element of the swing as I thought you were supposed to keep your head, centre of shoulders and centre of hips stacked above the ball throughout the swing. Additionally, the image illustrating the lean isn't evident in any videos that I have seen of stack and tilt pro's on tour.

Any clarification on this confusion would be much appreciated as I entirely want to adopt this swing, it has all of the principals that play to my strengths and I believe if I can master it, I can improve my game.

Thanks guys

Dave

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Huntington

Hello, I have been browsing these forums for some time now and have recently become interested in the Stack & Tilt golf swing. My book arrived yesterday and I have been nothing but confused since reading it. The first page where you are given any real instruction is page 14 and this is where it gets cloudy.

'Standing upright with your hands at your sides, tilt your upper body to the left so that your head moves outside your left leg - thats your spine tilt to the left on your backswing'

This completely contradicts the 'Stacked' element of the swing as I thought you were supposed to keep your head, centre of shoulders and centre of hips stacked above the ball throughout the swing. Additionally, the image illustrating the lean isn't evident in any videos that I have seen of stack and tilt pro's on tour.

Any clarification on this confusion would be much appreciated as I entirely want to adopt this swing, it has all of the principals that play to my strengths and I believe if I can master it, I can improve my game.

Thanks guys

Dave

I'd suggest reading the whole chapter rather than a paragraph before resigning yourself to confusion.

The description you've read is one single part of the upper body movement on the backswing.

To quote Pg16: "The coordination of these movements - straightening the spine from the forward tilt at address (1), tilting to the left (2), and turning (3) - allows the shoulders to turn in a circle, promoting solid contact.

From your normal address positon if you stand upright, tilt left (as suggested in the book!) and then rotate to your right you'll find yourself in a pretty spot-on backswing position.