Should Tiger Fire Haney

[BonoVox]

As soon as I saw the two shows on GC I am surprised he didn't fire him. Thinking back when Fluff was his caddie. Tiger it seems does not like people that work for him to overshadow him. (though back then maybe that was his father's call)

[Fourputt]

I was just going by the numbers: 6 wins, 14 top 10's in 17 events, 68.84 scoring average, and over 10 mil in earnings. I have a hard time believing Haney all of a sudden lost the ability to coach in the last year or so. If Tiger played to those results inspite of Haney, fine, but tough to prove. Just as one could surmise he has gone downhill due to Haney, one surely could point to Tiger's outside issues as well.

Tiger's driving has been atrocious since he fired Butch. He hits terrible drives then falls back on the old Tiger and uses great imagination to get back in play. Even his currently rare approach shots from the fairway aren't what they were 5 years ago. In 2 rounds at Quail Hollow he hit about 50% GIR and only 6 fairways. Granted that two rounds aren't a career, I see much more than just his outside activities as being responsible. They said the 79 he shot on Friday was his worst round as a professional on US soil. No matter the off course issues, that just isn't Tiger.

It's not that tough to prove, and nobody's claiming that Haney suddenly lost the ability to coach. Tiger's driving has always been poor under Hank. Always. And now it's gotten worse and is not only costing him tournaments but missed cuts.

Tiger used to know his swing. When something cropped up in a round, he knew what was wrong and he knew how to patch it up. Haney has him so screwed up that he can't recognize what's happening, so he can't work out a temporary fix on the go. I look at it like this. If a pro has a caddie who is giving him bad advice, he'd be fired. So why does hang onto Haney? Haney hasn't just given Tiger bad advice, he's screwed up Tiger's swing to the point where he might never recover.

[Divot Tool]

It has not proven successful. His driving stats - even his GIR stats - are down and have been down since signing with Hank Haney. His short game and putting are much improved. Look at the stats - don't just look at his wins. He's winning recently (though not as often in majors) on grit, determination, a short game, putting, and by keeping driver in the bag whenever possible.

I'd love to see those stats. Here's one for you. At the 2009 Memorial he was T3 in GIR for the tournament, hitting all 14 fairways in Round 4. He was T2 in driving accuracy. This is the same flawed

Haney swing that he's employed since the two hooked up. Are you telling me he was driving it an average distance of 298.4 yards because he was hitting 3 woods off the tee? That's laughable.

No he doesn't. Are you a newbie at parsing what Tiger says? "Two way miss" is as inconsistent as a golfer can be. He likes to TELL people he's more consistent as a way of talking himself up, but read between the lines, man.

Please enlighten me, clearly there's more between the lines. Tiger understands his swing better than anyone else. At the moment, he knows something is wrong. It will be fixed. Jumping ship when something goes astray is exactly what not to do, given the success he’s had under Haney.

Nope, he can't. Hank can't. The more time he spends with Hank the worse it's going to be. His mis-hits are worse.

Wrong. In

Golf at the Top with Steve Williams: Tips and Techniques from the Caddy to Raymond Floyd, Greg Norman, and Tiger Woods Steve Williams asserts that what distinguishes the Tiger of old from the latest Tiger is his ability to correct a swing tendency during a round, something the old Tiger could not do. The fact that he could not tweak his swing when something went awry (ex. @ Quail Hollow), brings into question his preparedness for tournament golf.

Go ahead - name the last tournament Tiger won by a sizable margin. Further evidence that his short game is keeping him in tournaments he doesn't deserve to win or finish top 10 in.

Has it occurred to you that the competition has gotten that much better? We are talking about the best players in the world. I can't fathom why anyone who isn’t ranked No.1 in the world doesn’t aspire to be No.1. Do you actually think that they are content finishing top 10 in a tournament? They actually try to win.

Lastly, let's not try to be the judge of all who deserves to win and who doesn’t . . . that's why we have scores.

[golf junkie]

Tiger's driving has been atrocious since he fired Butch. He hits terrible drives then falls back on the old Tiger and uses great imagination to get back in play. Even his currently rare approach shots from the fairway aren't what they were 5 years ago. In 2 rounds at Quail Hollow he hit about 50% GIR and only 6 fairways. Granted that two rounds aren't a career, I see much more than just his outside activities as being responsible. They said the 79 he shot on Friday was his worst round as a professional on US soil. No matter the off course issues, that just isn't Tiger.

How can I disagree with the above. The evidence is what it is. Stats/shot outcomes show the problems Tiger was having when he left Butch. Unfortunately, he continues to have to overcome all those bad shots time after time under Haney. His strong mental game helped him through any shot, that lagging these days, he has to hit better shots. He did get rid of Butch for a reason. Haney -I would run! However, all this has nothing to do with someone becoming bigger than he is. That was impossible,he made them. They DIDNT MAKE HIM. The shot outcomes when he left Butch, and where he is today, explain it all. Appear he expects more for the money he paid any of them. They have to deliver If not, find someone that can, or maybe better off without any,

if this is what you get?

[jamo]

Tiger's mental game has deteriorated more than his swing. He used to look like he was having fun out there. For the last five years, he's been a grumpy, scowling mess.

I like those videos. On the top one some differences I noticed: His hips don't move back in the 2007 frame, they do slightly in the 2001 frame. He overall has more of a hip oriented swing in 2001. You can tell this by looking at how little lag he has in the 2001 video compared to the 2007 one. Haney seems to have instituted more wrist and hand action into his swing. You can also see how much more he has cleared his hips in the 2001 video.

In the second video the thing I noticed most with the head was the movement before the downswing. He has always had a sit down motion at the start of the downswing, but there it started before he got to the top. It could be a timing issue, or a separate one all together. One separate issue: Tiger's driving has always been bad, so lets not put this all on Haney. Tiger is the one swinging the club, after all.

[Phil McGleno]

I'd love to see those stats.

Look them up. pgatour.com. Or, if you're a PGA Tour instructor or player (or a thousand other things) you can get more detailed stats in the ShotLink system.

Here's one for you. At the 2009 Memorial he was T3 in GIR for the tournament, hitting all 14 fairways in Round 4.

One tournament. Widest fairways on the PGA Tour all year. Hittin 3W or less well over 50% of the time.

Are you telling me he was driving it an average distance of 298.4 yards because he was hitting 3 woods off the tee? That's laughable.

It's not laughable. Did you watch the tournament? He hit driver something like 37% off the tees that week. The fairways were firm and they're as wide as the players see all year except perhaps at St. Andrews (on the 1st and 18th).

Jumping ship when something goes astray is exactly what not to do, given the success he’s had under Haney.

He had more success with another method. I like what the other guy said: Tiger's had success IN SPITE of Haney, not because of him.

Steve Williams asserts that what distinguishes the Tiger of old from the latest Tiger is his ability to correct a swing tendency during a round, something the old Tiger could not do. The fact that he could not tweak his swing when something went awry (ex. @ Quail Hollow), brings into question his preparedness for tournament golf.

It's not a recent phenomenon. Why couldn't he get it together in the final round of the PGA last year?

We are talking about the best players in the world. I can't fathom why anyone who isn’t ranked No.1 in the world doesn’t aspire to be No.1. Do you actually think that they are content finishing top 10 in a tournament? They actually try to win.

Yeah, that's the most laughable thing. Yes, of course they're content to finish in the top ten. Think of how many times we've debated people laying up this year when they're trailing. There's a lot of money for finishing in fourth.

What are you, related to Hank? Pssssh. Take off the blindfold.

[zeg]

I know a lot of you here know a lot about the golf swing, but I'm finding it very hard to believe that anyone here is better qualified to judge Haney (or Harmon or anyone) as a swing coach than Tiger. Someone said it above, and I said it in another thread here, but amid the personal turmoil, recovery from major surgery, long unplanned hiatuses from the game, etc, now is unquestionably the wrong time to panic and drop a coach after a couple bad tournaments (and a 4th place finish in a major). All we see is what happens on the course during tournaments.

No question Tiger's not playing as well, driving as well, etc, as he used to. Maybe it's because he's getting bad swing coaching, but there are a lot of other things going on. Not least, the man has a BRAND NEW HIP. He played golf on his original hip for 30+ years. Everything feels different now. So it's not just a matter of adjusting and moving on, he's got to fight his instinct to adjust to the new body.

[colin007]

i have never seen tiger hit balls farther off-line than he has with hank recently. some of his pushes are stunningly off line.

combine the vicious push with the pull hooks he hits the other half of the time and you have a recipe for disaster. please tiger, fire that idiot.

[tm22721]

Tiger's strength was his focus on the game which has been distracted. He needs another few Zen lessons from his mother.

[golfbarefoot]

He has won 6 Majors and 30 PGA tour events since teaming up with Haney...I don't think its Haney, I think he just needs time. I dont know if you remember, but after many many years of frustration and not winning one single major, everyone said the same thing about Bones, "mickelson will never win with bones, fire him"...hmm look at them now....

[Zeph]

Since when was Bones Phil's coach?

[colin007]

look, im one of the biggest tiger fans out there, but even i can recognize that something isnt right with the swing

[golfbarefoot]

Since when was Bones Phil's coach?

Where did you read Bones served as Phil's coach? Interesting. I've never seen that before. I was only aware he has worked for Phil as his caddie. Can you post the link for that one?

[Zeph]

How can you compare a swing coach with a caddie?

[golfbarefoot]

Easy, because they are a TEAM and if you understand how that works on tour, its very easy. Ponder this, which is more important to the player, the caddie or swing coach?

Did you find that URL where Bones was Phil's coach?

[Zeph]

I never said Bones was Phil's coach, I asked if he ever was.

Depends on the player who's more important I guess. Some players don't "use" the caddie for much more than carrying clubs and providing distances. For Tiger Woods, Hank Haney is far more important than Steve Williams. Both are of course part of the team and important to him, but Hank is the one working with Tiger's swing, making changes. Steve is there to help Tiger get through the tournaments, he can't change the swing of Tiger at the course. He can perhaps tell him what he thinks is the problem, but that won't fix anything permanently.

[colin007]

He has won 6 Majors and 30 PGA tour events since teaming up with Haney...I don't think its Haney, I think he just needs time. I dont know if you remember, but after many many years of frustration and not winning one single major, everyone said the same thing about Bones, "mickelson will never win with bones, fire him"...hmm look at them now....

dude, the immediate implication of your post, intended or not, was that you were comparing bones to haney. i dont see how you can imagine otherwise. hence, zephs response. its apples and oranges. phils having won majors as a result of working with butch would be a much more relevant observation. tiger and phil could probably win with you or me on the bag.

[golfbarefoot]

Some players don't "use" the caddie for much more than carrying clubs and providing distances, For Tiger Woods, Hank Haney is far more important than Steve Williams

Really? most interesting logic..