Flipping at Impact Master Thread

[kurisu]

While the image of the flying wedge might not click with everyone, all good ball strikers do have it at various degrees.

Ben Doyle supposedly had some of his students swing in the middle of tall grass, or swing a broom for a while and then come back to a golf club and reproduce the feeling. The point of the exercise (of the flying wedge) is to lead with the hands, not with the club. Whatever image that helps you produce that result is worth keeping.

But again, each person is wired differently, so while the visual of the flying wedge might not click with you, it might with someone else.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

This might be unpopular here, but I believe holding flying wedges is a tough way to learn to not flip. I know of very few golfers who have done it just by holding a flying wedge. I think the flying wedge is an observation by HK of a position that good players achieve it is not an active drill to prevent flipping.

I agree. We never tell people "hold the flying wedge better."

The drill in my video (and it's not the only time someone's filmed that drill) demonstrates how you can do it, check yourself, and start to develop your own "feel" for it. If done properly you will have more flying wedge retention.

But I agree - the vast majority of golfers can't improve by thinking "more flying wedge." Which is why, again, we never tell people that. Flying wedge is a result, not a cause.

Also, CuppedTin, please make nice with "search." "Flipping" might be the single most discussed thing here and there are already plenty of threads devoted to it. I'm going to choose a random one and merge this thread.

[iacas]

In fact I've created a new "Master Thread" for this topic. If anyone else spies any other "flipping" threads which should be merged into this one, please send me a PM with the URL to the other thread so that I can merge it into this one as well.

Thank you.

[CuppedTin]

Erik thanks man for doing this. I had so many post out there I was literally forgetting where to go back and read...

Look, I have managed to become a decent golfer while flipping the club. Granted my chipping and putting is the strongest part of my game but I really can't remember the last time I shot in the 80's... But I think I now know where my extremely high driver backspin rate and high iron shots come from now, from flipping the club at impact. I see where someone had posted that players flip to compensate for the clubhead not being in the right place at impact. Well after watching the hit and stop drill I practiced it awhile last night and the feeling I get is that it feels like I am not letting my wrist break until after I make contact with the ball. I usually pick a ball clean or leave a small divot, well with holding/keeping the flying wedge I am hitting the ball and after the ball I am getting a divot about 5" long, I know it is after the ball because I placed a tee at the ball. So essentially this is causing me to hit down through the ball now. But it still does not explain why I flip unless it is because I am not fully rotating on the down swing. When I held the flying wedge and turned through to facing the target is when I held the wedge the best...

Flipping:

Holding Flying Wedge (I Think):

This video makes perfect sense and if I am right I am doing exactly what he is describing in the first part of the video. I am only turning 90 degrees and not 180 degrees:

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

This video makes perfect sense and if I am right I am doing exactly what he is describing in the first part of the video. I am only turning 90 degrees and not 180 degrees:

That video is terrible. You do not want your shoulders as far open as he suggests. Not even close.

I told you in another thread I was done helping you because you keep making new threads and doing very little actual research on your own, on this site or elsewhere. You made a silly comment about how I can't help myself. Turns out I can. Someone else can help you. I only have so much free time in a day to give free advice.

[CuppedTin]

Thanks Erik, I'm going to read through this entire thread dedicated to flipping... This is why youtube is so confusing, this video had nothing but great comments.

lol, ok guys I can honestly say that I do post before I do any research... I posted on here before I ever read page one of this thread which clearly shows all the correct drills.. Sorry

[saevel25]

Flipping the club just means your not letting the clubhead do the work. I have played golf for many years similar to what you describe. I would hang back, have a slight flip. My ball position was back further to compensate. I would hit high shots, and i was able to get to a single handicap, but if my timing was off i was doomed, horrible. I hated the inconsistancy with that type of golf.

Then i went to see a pro and we are working on getting the clubhead to do alot more of the work, getting my left hand near my left hip at impact. Getting me to stop chicken winging (which was a result from flipping), i am now much more consistant than i have ever been. I don't have blow up holes any more, i have made more birdies in the past month than i have in 3 years. I went back to back round with 3-4 birdies in each round, it was amazing.

So yes, you can play golf flipping the club, but it hinders lenght, accuracy, and overall the level at which you can play at.

[CuppedTin]

Flipping the club just means your not letting the clubhead do the work. I have played golf for many years similar to what you describe. I would hang back, have a slight flip. My ball position was back further to compensate. I would hit high shots, and i was able to get to a single handicap, but if my timing was off i was doomed, horrible. I hated the inconsistancy with that type of golf.

Then i went to see a pro and we are working on getting the clubhead to do alot more of the work, getting my left hand near my left hip at impact. Getting me to stop chicken winging (which was a result from flipping), i am now much more consistant than i have ever been. I don't have blow up holes any more, i have made more birdies in the past month than i have in 3 years. I went back to back round with 3-4 birdies in each round, it was amazing.

So yes, you can play golf flipping the club, but it hinders lenght, accuracy, and overall the level at which you can play at.

Man I really appreciate you taking the time to post because you were exactly where I am now. I can play the flip and I know the chicken wing all too well, I can drive it consistently when I'm on 260-270 carry with so much backspin that the driver actually hits and comes back after one high bounce. I have read through this entire thread and it is truly a different feeling holding the flat right wrist/cupped left wrist at impact (I'm a lefty)... And I'm athletic enough that I have no problem with it. But the weird part is knowing when the club actually does release...

[mobosecomin]

I don't know if this video is completely relevant here but I do feel it is a good move for flippers to try to emulate. I really like this tip I think it has helped me greatly with my ball striking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dB92puVNHo

[saevel25]

Well watching that, my tempo will be solid for tonights golf league..

Great mental image on that.

[CuppedTin]

Man, this just really sucks... I'm not very good at doing the short swings, but when I took very slow swings and held the flat right wrist at impact, and held the angle on the left wrist I had great divots... But not flipping is going to take a lottttttttt of work. Taking arms and flipping out of the swing is going to prove to be very difficult!

[Zeph]

Man, this just really sucks... I'm not very good at doing the short swings, but when I took very slow swings and held the flat right wrist at impact, and held the angle on the left wrist I had great divots... But not flipping is going to take a lottttttttt of work. Taking arms and flipping out of the swing is going to prove to be very difficult!

Chipping is a good place to start. Take the club back, hinge it a bit, then drive the hands down, feeling the club lag behind. Keep doing it until you get it right. From there, keep increasing length and speed until you fail, then go back again. The feeling after impact can also help. Try to achieve the position Erik got in his weight forward video with the hands ahead of the clubhead after impact.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Chipping is a good place to start. Take the club back, hinge it a bit, then drive the hands down, feeling the club lag behind. Keep doing it until you get it right. From there, keep increasing length and speed until you fail, then go back again.

The feeling after impact can also help. Try to achieve the position Erik got in his weight forward video with the hands ahead of the clubhead after impact.

Zeph, I'm following this and I have all the videos saved on my desk top rom Erik. But what do you mean by "drive the hands" down? Do you pull with your leading hand, push with your cupped trailing hand, or both?

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Man, this just really sucks... I'm not very good at doing the short swings, but when I took very slow swings and held the flat right wrist at impact, and held the angle on the left wrist I had great divots... But not flipping is going to take a lottttttttt of work. Taking arms and flipping out of the swing is going to prove to be very difficult!

It is VERY difficult if you have been doing it a while.  I had a slight flip about 2 years ago.  I would be in good position until the final frame before impact.  I worked with a teacher for a long time before getting it better.  I still have a slight flip from time to time but it seems to be right after impact (by right after, I mean the next frame on video).

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Zeph, I'm following this and I have all the videos saved on my desk top rom Erik. But what do you mean by "drive the hands" down? Do you pull with your leading hand, push with your cupped trailing hand, or both?

I have the feeling of pulling the butt of the club.  I would think that this feeling may be different for each person.   I know you were asking Zeph, but I thought I would throw this out as well.  That is what triggers me to keep the hands forward.  I use this along with the feeling of my hands beating the face to impact, and it works out quite well. Just a thought

[nevets88]

I flipped for many years too and I would ask my past instructors if I was flipping and they said no, but while the video didn't show a massive flip, it was there. Plus a bit of a chicken wing. I almost wished some of them would say, man, you suck, you need to revamp. I would have said, fix me, but then that's not exactly the way to get repeat customers.

I thought to get rid of it was in the hands via manipulating the hands, but now I think it's more sequence, body motion and less hands. The only thing my hands can do is promote a block or hook, it can't do much about the low point and impact position.

All the standard recommendations never worked for me. The ubiquitous pump 3 times and go. Pulling the handle. YMMV, but for me, nope.

I would practice the flat bowed wrist at impact postion at home and it all went out the window when actually hitting a ball.

One of the eye popping differences to me between flipping and flat/bowed at impact is how that trailing hand feels cupped, the trailing palm feels like it is facing somewhere right of the target facing a bit up. It feels like I am going to hit the ball way too high, but ball flight is normal.

And it feels totally different from a flip so you want to feel something way out of ordinary.

[CuppedTin]

Thanks for the input TN94z, I think a big part of my problem is that I am keeping too much tension in my wrist. I just watched "Confessions of a Flipper" and it seemed to be very easy to understand.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by TN94z

I have the feeling of pulling the butt of the club.  I would think that this feeling may be different for each person.   I know you were asking Zeph, but I thought I would throw this out as well.  That is what triggers me to keep the hands forward.  I use this along with the feeling of my hands beating the face to impact, and it works out quite well. Just a thought

For me, it's the feeling of swinging the hands/handle through the hit without thinking of the club head. Still a work in progress, but now at least I can feel the difference between a strike where I have driven the club through impact and one where I have cast it and flipped.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by nevets88

I flipped for many years too and I would ask my past instructors if I was flipping and they said no, but while the video didn't show a massive flip, it was there. Plus a bit of a chicken wing. I almost wished some of them would say, man, you suck, you need to revamp. I would have said, fix me, but then that's not exactly the way to get repeat customers.

I thought to get rid of it was in the hands via manipulating the hands, but now I think it's more sequence, body motion and less hands. The only thing my hands can do is promote a block or hook, it can't do much about the low point and impact position.

All the standard recommendations never worked for me. The ubiquitous pump 3 times and go. Pulling the handle. YMMV, but for me, nope.

I would practice the flat bowed wrist at impact postion at home and it all went out the window when actually hitting a ball.

One of the eye popping differences to me between flipping and flat/bowed at impact is how that trailing hand feels cupped, the trailing palm feels like it is facing somewhere right of the target facing a bit up. It feels like I am going to hit the ball way too high, but ball flight is normal.

And it feels totally different from a flip so you want to feel something way out of ordinary.

This is the exact thing that I got from watching the Brian Manzella "Confessions of a Flipper"... I can do it perfect if I focus on keeping my trailing wrist hinged and straightening the trailing arm on the down swing which also promotes a flat leading wrist at impact.