Flipping at Impact Master Thread

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

When the left shoulder gets too high, you NEED to flip to lengthen the lever (the left shoulder to the clubhead).

This is why I didn't like this video at all. He seemed to be advocating a high left shoulder through impact.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

This is why I didn't like this video at all. He seemed to be advocating a high left shoulder through impact.

Well, some amateurs straighten their right arm too quickly (often because their weight is going backwards or isn't forward enough) and flip at it because they feel low point moving backwards. So for them the advice is "okay." Not great, but not bad.

[bunkerputt]

I think the biggest breakthrough for me came when I started doing three things:

1.  Admit I have a flip along with having a fully fleshed-out definition of what that means and implies for the clubhead.

2.  Focus on feeling when the flip happens by mentally monitoring the wrist conditions through impact and into the follow-through.

3.  Focus on where I want to get my wrists and hands to in the follow-through and how I want to get them there.

These three forced me to not unwind so quickly from the top and press the hips forward with just a little work on bringing the arms down more quickly.  At first it was really weird because my swing tempo changed considerably due to the additional "beat" that I felt on my downswing that wasn't present before.  Now it's almost, but not quite second nature.

I think way too many people look at impact to determine flippage.  You can have foward shaft lean with a flipping clubhead.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I think way too many people look at impact to determine flippage.  You can have foward shaft lean with a flipping clubhead.

Agree. I think it is best to look at P6.8, P7, and P7.2 to determine if a flip occurs.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I think way too many people look at impact to determine flippage.  You can have foward shaft lean with a flipping clubhead.

I agree with the specifics but disagree in whole.

Virtually every good and great player flips at some point. See this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/t/44717/is-there-a-5th-power-accumulator . I don't care if someone "flips" at A7.2 so long as the shaft hasn't reached inline with their lead arm at A7.0.

[2thetee]

Confessions of a serial flipper.  This is how am I attempting to overcome the flipping problem which for ME -- I describe as an early (before P7.5) downward cocking of the wrists which destroys your flying wedge that should be maintained to impact. My flip occurs between P5 and P6.

FIRST I have attempted to read all that I can on the mechanics of the swing and flipping. I recommend 3Jack and The Machinist instruction on their blogs as follows:

Example of hands slowing down and quitting: http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/09/3jacks-translation-of-tgm-part-6g.html

Example of keeping the hands moving at a constant speed and how acceleration is really created in your swing by the endless belt: http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/09/3jacks-translation-of-tgm-part-6f.html See also the Machinist blog at http://golfingmachinist.com.au/article.php?id=1
3Jack states: “The hacker who has throwaway slows down those hands and loses that lag pressure in the hands. That causes the clubhead increase in mass and the hands keep slowing down. One major thing to note in the golf swing is that ONCE THAT LAG PRESSURE IS LOST, IT'S GONE, YOU CAN'T GET IT BACK IN THAT PARTICULAR SWING. Furthermore, ONCE YOUR HANDS SLOW DOWN IN THE DOWNSWING, YOU CAN'T SPEED THEM UP IN THAT PARTICULAR SWING.”

Example of geometry of the circle and why the low point is after impact: http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/09/3jacks-translation-of-tgm-part-5.html and

http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/09/3jacks-translation-of-tgm-part-6e.html
As 3Jack states: “If you 'flip' the low point will move further back in your stance, but it's tough to figure out where the low point will be. If your left wrist is flat, the low point will always be opposite of the left shoulder.”

The low point of the swing is after impact BUT only if you have not flipped. If you flip prior to P7 then you have lengthened the radius of your swing causing you at best to sweep the ball at impact. Flipping destroys your constant hand velocity and slows the swing AND deprives you of the acceleration at impact.

Know the 3 pressure points of the grip and 1 pressure point between the chest and left arm. Read the Machinist blog: http://golfingmachinist.com.au/article.php?id=66

Know what the FLYING WEDGE is! Read the Machinist blog: http://golfingmachinist.com.au/article.php?id=30

Know what the 4 power accumulators are:
http://3jack.blogspot.com/2009/05/understanding-basics-of-tgm-part-v.html

Know whether you are a swinger THUS 423 or a Hitter THUS 4123.

SECOND. Practice drills that I am using:

9 O’clock to 3 O’clock wedge drill (acquired motion drill) with a wedge – Exaggerate -- get your hands all the way to your left thigh before impact Visually – allow yourself to see your hands go by the ball before impact occurs; Audible –allow yourself to hear impact after your hands go by the ball; Kinetically – allow yourself to feel the low point 3 inches after the ball; No divot before the ball.

Same drill with 8 iron off a tee and put tee in ground 3 inches after ball. Make sure divot is after the ball impact. Hit the second tee. Hit the 8 iron as low as possible.

If you are a swinger then hit ¾ iron shots off a tee taking the divot after impact. Concentrate on constant hand speed. For me this means keeping enough pressure at PP#1 (right heel pad on left thumb) so that the hands work as one unit to keep a constant speed but not so much pressure as to stiffen the forearms and you do not want to activate Power accumulator #1 – extension of the right arm – you are practicing 423 power accumulators NOT 4123. IDEALLY Allow your left arm to completely unwind all the way to your left thigh while keeping the flying wedge.

Pleaselet me know what you have found that works for you. Thanks for listening.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by 2thetee

Pleaselet me know what you have found that works for you. Thanks for listening.

That's all good stuff.  Thanks for sharing.  One thing I've found that helps me...

I've found that a lot of people, me in particular can avoid a flip on shorter shots, but when the backswing gets a little longer, they flip it when they are trying not to.  With this in mind, I do a little continual motion drill where I make a tiny swing, brush the grass, in rhythm, go back a little longer, brush the grass, go back a little longer, etc.  It gives  me a good feel for the additional time required in the longer downswing to get the hips forward and accelerate gradually, avoiding the flip.  Then I'll keep swinging in rhythm at the maximum backswing length a few times, reinforcing the timing.  I do this drill after each bad shot on the range when I regress somewhat and start flipping it a little.  This all presuposes that you are able to feel when you flip the club.  I can feel it because it's like a broken record playing the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard to me.  Not sure what other people feel, but I'm guessing this is something that needs to be trained for this drill to be effective.  Then I coach myself mentally that it's not how hard, it's how solid.  That gets me back on track pretty quick if I do it faithfully.

[Golfguy21]

I don't know if this was stated previously or not but does anyone know any drills that would help me stop "casting" the club. I took some video lessons and my flipping is because I cast the club so the only way for me to hit the ball is to flip. The instructor recommended the Tour Striker so I bought one and can hit that fine. When I get back to my clubs I still flip and it leaves me with these thin shots that fly "hot" into greens and sting my hands. So if anyone know drills that could help me with that thank you.

[Dr. Slice]

Lately i have been working on starting my downswing with the hips and letting my arms trail in order to have that left wrist at impact. What should the proper hip movement on the downswing feel like?

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Golfguy21

I don't know if this was stated previously or not but does anyone know any drills that would help me stop "casting" the club. I took some video lessons and my flipping is because I cast the club so the only way for me to hit the ball is to flip. The instructor recommended the Tour Striker so I bought one and can hit that fine. When I get back to my clubs I still flip and it leaves me with these thin shots that fly "hot" into greens and sting my hands. So if anyone know drills that could help me with that thank you.

Is the length matched to your set?  Put it on a tight lie.  Can you still hit it fine?  If so, put some tape on the bottom 3 grooves of your playing irons and try not to hit it.  If you still flip your irons, but not the TS, try to find a set of irons you don't flip, or just practice until you can overcome the psychology of it.

[logman]

That's great info!

[Golfguy21]

Wow! I will have to try that sounds like an amazing drill. Thanks again for the info.

[buddhabob]

try something that I use from watching baseball players in batting practice. Take a normal swing and just at impact release the right hand completely from the club and let centrifugal force pull your left wrist up and out and around to a full and extended backswing. Warm up first because this will work with surprising force and requires your left shoulder to be warmed up and loose for full extension. I have never seen a converted baseball player in longdrive flip the club. They are trained in the batting cages to not leak power and when you let go your right hand and swing thru only with the left the feeling is there. You do this repeatedly and then go back to swinging with both arms and you should notice a big difference. I actually think that flipping the driver is an subconscious instinct to control the speed created by massive centrifugal force on the downswing, like edging too much in downhill skiing, or braking on a steep hill in a car. The body reacts against the amount of speed generated, in this case, the reaction is a negative and must be unlearned and discarded. IMO only.

[colin007]

Tagging @iacas and @mvmac - What do you think of this drill for a flipper? [VIDEO]Hit Your Golf Irons Close Dynamic Loft: http://youtu.be/bkxDQe33i6Y[/VIDEO]

[iacas]

Tagging @iacas and @mvmac -

What do you think of this drill for a flipper?

What's the summary?

[colin007]

What's the summary?

take an iron, rotate it 20 degrees closed, take your regular grip, and hit the ball straight even tho the face is pointed dead left.  its supposed to get you to push the hands forwards so that the face isnt closed, in effect, getting rid of the flip.

[iacas]

take an iron, rotate it 20 degrees closed, take your regular grip, and hit the ball straight even tho the face is pointed dead left.  its supposed to get you to push the hands forwards so that the face isnt closed, in effect, getting rid of the flip.

Eh. Then I don't particularly care for it.