Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern

[Jeremie Boop]

I have a quick question. I spent time on the flightscope today trying to figure out where my gap is in the upper end of my bag. The numbers showed that I need to get a fairway wood, but the real question I came up with is my driver numbers were interesting. I did have a  positive AoA, however it was an average of 7 and launch angle of 17.6... That seems to be a bit much. The smash factor averaged 1.45 so that is pretty good, carry with range balls was 249.8 average and spin average of 2335. So, everything seems good except for the extreme AoA. Is it something I should fix or is it ok? If it matters I'm using a G25 set at 9* loft with tour X-stiff shaft.

[mvmac]

Justin Thomas numbers. "Only" 117 club head speed and carries it 314. AoA is +3, wouldn't be able to hit it that far if he hit down.

 

[Golfingdad]

38 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Justin Thomas numbers. "Only" 117 club head speed and carries it 314. AoA is +3, wouldn't be able to hit it that far if he hit down.

 

Mike, do you know what the correlation is between the angle and distance?  I believe for clubhead speed its like 3 yards per 1 mph or something.

What is the estimated gain/loss in distance for each degree in AOA?  (Assuming all else equal - if thats possible)  Or are there too many other factors at play to even guess at that?

[kpaulhus]

30 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Mike, do you know what the correlation is between the angle and distance?  I believe for clubhead speed its like 3 yards per 1 mph or something.

What is the estimated gain/loss in distance for each degree in AOA?  (Assuming all else equal - if thats possible)  Or are there too many other factors at play to even guess at that?

I think 3 yds per 1mph is a little high, but close. For JT specifically its 2.68 yards of carry. For me at a 109mph SS I carry the ball 262avg so 2.4 yards. JT has a bit higher smash factor on average and hits the center of the club face more, though. 

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

What is the estimated gain/loss in distance for each degree in AOA?  (Assuming all else equal - if thats possible)  Or are there too many other factors at play to even guess at that?

I think it depends on the club head speed. I would say it's impossible to assume all else is equal. Lower AoA means lower dynamic loft, which means higher ball speeds, but also lower launch and higher spin. 

Trackman put out a chart with some numbers for different clubhead speeds. It shows AoA at +5, 0, -5. At 75 mph club head speed the difference in carry divided by the difference in AoA is 1.6. While at 95 mph club head speed its 2.2. 

 

[kpaulhus]

Is there a perfect optimal condition, or is it just a +1 or +2 AoA and 2000 rpm of spin?

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, kpaulhus said:

Is there a perfect optimal condition, or is it just a +1 or +2 AoA and 2000 rpm of spin?

It probably depends on your ball speed, and how the club is fitted. I would think 2-3 degrees hitting up is easy to achieve and gets good results. So I would say, hit 2-3 up consistently and then get the club fitted to that. 

[Golfingdad]

24 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I think it depends on the club head speed. I would say it's impossible to assume all else is equal. Lower AoA means lower dynamic loft, which means higher ball speeds, but also lower launch and higher spin. 

Trackman put out a chart with some numbers for different clubhead speeds. It shows AoA at +5, 0, -5. At 75 mph club head speed the difference in carry divided by the difference in AoA is 1.6. While at 95 mph club head speed its 2.2. 

 

Thanks.  That sounds familiar now that you mention it.  I think I've seen it.  (Found it!)

Found it here, actually: 

 

[colin007]

I think I hit the center of the clubface...once....

[mvmac]

Grant Waite demonstrating why hitting up can be beneficial, especially if you swing under 100mph.

 

 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

Grant Waite demonstrating why hitting up can be beneficial, especially if you swing under 100mph.

 

 

Great video. My question though is how do we optimize the attack angle versus our ball position?

I had worked with my Evolvr instructor on hitting up with the driver in 2015. Last winter, I did some launch monitor work and found with the ball just ahead of my heel (as I played it all year), I was hitting up, 3-4 degrees, but I was also coming out to in a couple of degrees. The ball flight was variable with both push slices and some hooks  due to face control I believe.

I moved the ball back in increments and got the AoA to just positive, around +0.5 deg, with the path now out by 0.5 to 1.0 degree. This position was before my left heel now. The flight seemed more controllable. 

Is this the best approach or is trying to change the path (my circle) and move that more forward a better approach and keep the ball position forward? 

[colin007]

4 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Great video. My question though is how do we optimize the attack angle versus our ball position?

I had worked with my Evolvr instructor on hitting up with the driver in 2015. Last winter, I did some launch monitor work and found with the ball just ahead of my heel (as I played it all year), I was hitting up, 3-4 degrees, but I was also coming out to in a couple of degrees. The ball flight was variable with both push slices and some hooks  due to face control I believe.

I moved the ball back in increments and got the AoA to just positive, around +0.5 deg, with the path now out by 0.5 to 1.0 degree. This position was before my left heel now. The flight seemed more controllable. 

Is this the best approach or is trying to change the path (my circle) and move that more forward a better approach and keep the ball position forward? 

im no doctor, but i think its how you can move the ball forward for the hitting up aspect, and then tilt your circle to the right (by setting up somewhat closed to your TL) to get the horizontal angle close to zero instead of left.

[iacas]

Scott had face control issues when hitting up. It may have been a mindset issue, or not keeping the rotation rate up which led to a rate of closure or overtaking rate issue. 

[TheGolfClubDoc]

I don't have a stack and tilt swing and I'm not sure how much of those pertains to my swing, but I have always struggled with the driver. I never really got comfortable with my ball position. The only thing I knew was that I'm dead straight with my irons but slice the heck out of my drives. So, just playing around, I decided to position the ball with my driver like I do with my irons. Picture this, take your club and split stance evenly with it and now place these ball just in front of the face of the club. That's my ball position for all irons. So I tried this same ball position for my fairway woods first and for the first time I was able to fit a fairway wood off the deck and it went dead straight. Still I tried my driver in that ball position and the first few times, I hit a draw, but it's because I'm used to closing the face at address to combat my slice. Set up square and everything started to go straight. My shot was a little low though so I got a 13.5 degree driver and problem solved. So now I play the same ball position for each club in my bag from driver to putter. 

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, doctordwayne said:

I don't have a stack and tilt swing and I'm not sure how much of those pertains to my swing

This thread doesn't apply just to the Stack and Tilt

32 minutes ago, doctordwayne said:

So, just playing around, I decided to position the ball with my driver like I do with my irons. Picture this, take your club and split stance evenly with it and now place these ball just in front of the face of the club. That's my ball position for all irons. So I tried this same ball position for my fairway woods first and for the first time I was able to fit a fairway wood off the deck and it went dead straight. 

Sounds to me you swing over the top and play a pull. It would make sense that moving the ball back would help combat a slice since you are effectively taking a bit of inward swing path out. 

In the end this will hurt your ability to hit the ball with any height. You'll probably struggle with long distance. You will lose a lot of distance with your driver. 

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, doctordwayne said:

I don't have a stack and tilt swing and I'm not sure how much of those pertains to my swing, but I have always struggled with the driver.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with S&T. I should edit the first post. I'll do that soon.

55 minutes ago, doctordwayne said:

My shot was a little low though so I got a 13.5 degree driver and problem solved. So now I play the same ball position for each club in my bag from driver to putter. 

You should learn to hit a driver. You're probably spinning the ball way too much and costing yourself a TON of distance.

[Buckeyebowman]

This is interesting although I didn't bother to wade through 17 pages of posts. I read iacas' OP and the last page. I find it interesting that I watched a video from Bobby Clampett last year where he announced that he had changed his mind. He used to advocate hitting down on the driver, but with the advances in driver and golf ball technology he now advocated hitting up. The interesting part was that he came to this conclusion 5 years after iacas did.

Another interesting thing was the numbers for Justin Thomas's swing. Did anybody but me notice the spin rate of just 1804?! I guess that's what you call catching it dead flush!

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Another interesting thing was the numbers for Justin Thomas's swing. Did anybody but me notice the spin rate of just 1804?! I guess that's what you call catching it dead flush!

More about the angle of attack and where he's hitting it on the face. JT hits up like 4° and most likely the contact is a little high in the face. Boo Weekley also flushes it but has much different launch and spin number.

Just saw this graphic from an instructor's article today, data is a little old (Rory isn't wearing the swoosh) and I'd bet anything his spin is lower now (he's more "optimized" now). Point is check out how their swing speeds are basically the same, they both hit it solid but Rory is carrying it 16 yards further than Sergio. Rory is doing that because he's launching it higher with less spin. And a big part of that is due to their angle of attack. Rory hits well up and Sergio is a little down.

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

The interesting part was that he came to this conclusion 5 years after iacas did.

Yeah that's pretty standard, there have been a few things @iacas has brought to people's attention that are now seen more commonly as the truth.