Can you explain this mentality?

[Shindig]

I was talking to a good friend of mine yesterday; an 11-handicap who can absolutely kill the ball.  He hits his 35-degree iron (it's labeled "8" - more on this later) 160 yards on an easy (for him) swing.  By contrast, I hit my 8-iron 130-135.

I mentioned that I had been to a demo day, and found a set of irons whose feel I really liked (Wilson FG62).   He advised that, when I get them (no immediate purchase plans on my part), I should be sure to get them with strong lofts "because you (Shindig) need the distance and already hit the ball high."

He plays TaylorMade Burner irons;  the 4 to the 8 in that set match the lofts of the 3-7 in my irons (mixed MP-57 and Nike VR, but lofts match on those two).  That is, Burner 4 is 21 degrees, same as the MP-57 3-iron.  His 5 is my 4, ... his 8 matches my 7's loft.

(For the other clubs:  Burner 9 is 40, P 45 ; MP-57 8 is 39, then 9 43, P 47).

Now, I hear similar arguments  quite a bit from people, so I'm wondering if I'm completely missing something.  My understand is that longer clubs are harder to hit, in part, because of the lower loft (21 degree iron less forgiving than a similarly designed 24 degree, etc).

Assuming the user is fit for it, though, would a 35 degree 8-iron be easier to hit than a 35-degree 7-iron, coming from the same set?   Or is there something else to this sort of line of reasoning that I'm missing?  I wasn't able to get much insight about this from the friend, only that he thinks my lofts are too weak (I think my lofts are strong, but that's another story for another day), so I'm hoping someone here is familiar with arguments like this and might be able to explain it to me.

[Gioguy21]

"i could slap a guarantee on a box of sh*t but then all you got's a guaranteed piece of sh*t...."

go by loft, not the whole 'oh well his 8 is my 7 and my 6 is his 5"...btw, play to YOUR game...if he hits it long, good for him. realize how far you hit your clubs..JUST your clubs...and go from there. find your gapping when you get fit. if you find that you could grab his 8 and hit it as far as you hit your 7...then you'll soon realize it's the LOFT you hit 150, and not the number on the club. that make sense? i know this because of first hand experience. i am a full club and a half longer with my taylormades than i am with my Ping ISI-K blades...why? the lofts are a full club different...which means i'm technicaly only hitting the clubs a half club longer than i hit my Ping's. it's all in relativity.

the worst thing you could be doing is asking someone else is what club they hit on which hole and from how far out. find what you hit and how far, build upon that.

[lumpuckeroo]

I think your reasoning is pretty sound, one aspect you have to take into account is the length of the club also, Part of the reason a 3i is more difficult to hit then a PW is the lenth of the shaft.  If you have a 3i with the same length shaft and the same lie as your PW, you would not be able to hit it as far as your current 3i.

In theory you would not be able to carry your altered 3i as far as your PW but overall distance could be the same as a PW would drop and stop where the altered 3i would roll.

If you look back at clubs that were made as late as the mid 80's you will see an even greater difference in club loft, a Wilson FG51 8i is 42* loft and the PW is 50* loft.

Basically club manufactors have "added length" to your game by making the lofts stronger in clubs.

[saevel25]

I play the Taylormade Burner irons, i like them alot. I did alot of research on this and basically it doesn't matter anymore between 7 or 8 iron, all that matters is loft, lie, length. Naming clubs is idiotic, and is only good for the player using the club. When people ask me what i hit i have to actually give them one club less because my clubs are one club strong, usually. Some clubs are about half as strong, or more than 1 club strong.

Accuracy wise, thats such an individual question, but longer clubs are less accurate. So if you have a 35 degree club at half an inch longer, it should be a bit less accurate.

So when you compare burners to other irons, match up irons that are similar. So your saying that there 4 is your 3, then pair them up like that when you test them. Because your 4 will be shorter and more accurate, like any standard 1 club difference.

[JetFan1983]

I always thought of the stronger lofts on all the new sets as sales gimmicks: Joe Shmoe, who's been playing the same iron set for the past 5-6 years, walks into a golf store and discovers that he hits the new Taylormade Burner 8-iron (for example) 20 yards farther than the 8-iron in his bag. He suddenly begins to think that its his equipment -- and not his swing -- that is the reason for his lack of power. In reality, the new Burner 8-iron has the same loft as his 6-iron at home.

Originally Posted by Shindig

My understand is that longer clubs are harder to hit, in part, because of the lower loft (21 degree iron less forgiving than a similarly designed 24 degree, etc).

Assuming the user is fit for it, though, would a 35 degree 8-iron be easier to hit than a 35-degree 7-iron, coming from the same set?

I would think it would be easier just because the 8-iron is slightly shorter than the 7-iron; however, I don't see the difference in ease being significant enough to warrant a change.

I'd stick with your current set.

[Shindig]

Feedback so far seems to indicate that I wasn't missing much (other than that part about shaft length - forgot about that being a factor;  thanks).

No worries;  I wasn't considering getting a set with stronger lofts (frankly, I think my friend fell for too much marketing hype, when he's the type of player that least needs that).

I was just wondering if there was any merit to the idea that a 44 degree PW is somehow better than a 44 degree 9-iron.   It seems the answer is not by much, and certainly not by enough to justify a switch (besides, I want new shoes and a new bag before I get new irons anyway).

Thanks everyone.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Shindig

I was just wondering if there was any merit to the idea that a 44 degree PW is somehow better than a 44 degree 9-iron.   It seems the answer is not by much, and certainly not by enough to justify a switch (besides, I want new shoes and a new bag before I get new irons anyway).

Thanks everyone.

The bounce would be different too, but again, by a very small margin, probably only about a degree or two.

[MasterP]

Part of the reason why club makers have been going to stronger lofts is because GI clubs are designed to launch the ball high.  They generally have a low center of gravity and get the ball up quick.  So a 40° GI club might actually be shorter than a 40° blade since the GI iron is going to launch the ball higher.  So the end result is that a GI 8 iron will launch the ball as high as a blade 8 iron, but go further because of the stronger loft.

In the end though it's all about knowing how far each iron goes for you.  The number on the bottom doesn't really matter.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by saevel25

When people ask me what i hit i have to actually give them one club less because my clubs are one club strong

Gotta be careful about when you do this:

8-1/9  Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Gotta be careful about when you do this:

8-1/9  Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

That's very interesting because it calls into question the interpretation of "purposely misleading."  In the poster's case, he was misleading for the sake of helping the person choose the correct club out of his bag, but the spirit of the rule is to dissuade a person from misleading his opponent to choose the incorrect club.  I'm guessing he would still be in violation of the rule in match play, but if I were him I would argue my intent at least.

Brandon

[TourSpoon]

Shindig, remember this thread? http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/9728/traditional-lofts-versus-modern-lofts

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Gotta be careful about when you do this:

8-1/9  Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

When asked what I'm hitting I just state the yardage and say "I'm hitting my X yard club".

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

When asked what I'm hitting I just state the yardage and say "I'm hitting my  X  yard club".

I tell them her name

[Shindig]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Shindig, remember this thread?

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/9728/traditional-lofts-versus-modern-lofts

I do now.  I guess that's the right term I should have looked for.  Thanks!

[delav]

I think the stronger lofts are part marketing, and part evolution due to the way may GI clubs launch the ball.  I believe there is a psychological component to the shift, too.  Players will feel more confident with a 6 iron in their hand, even if by metrics it's really a traditional 5 iron. The fact that a modern 6 iron is more like my 5 iron doesn't really both me.

Does it really matter how far your friend hits it?  A 160 yard with a 7/8 (35 degree club) isn't really too abnormal.  Many better players will hit a 43 degree (traditional 9 iron) from this distance.

What matters is being able to control your distance and trajectory.  These modern GI clubs don't let you play as many shots in from 160 yards, where many players would use anything from a 7 iron to a wedge depending upon the wind, the green/fringe and the hole location.

[bunkerputt]

The bag of the future is all drivers.  7 degree driver and 8.5 degree pitching wedge.  The shafts are also all 50 inches long.  Odyssey has just released their new 10-ball mallet putter.

[mdl]

I wonder how much of the increased accuracy as you go from 3i to SW is from the decrease in loft and how much is from the shorter shaft length and increase in lie angle.  Obviously I'd bet, as most here probably would, that the majority comes just from the increasing loft.  But I wonder whether playing what's called 4i-PW in a modern de-lofted set as 3i-9i might increase accuracy.  As a tall guy with longish arms and a more one-plane style swing, I know I feel much more natural with a shorter club with increased lie angle.  Might you actually play better with all your clubs' shaft length and lie angle set up for what with a more traditional set of lofts would be one club stronger?

I know you lose a little distance as shaft length decreases, but I've never found choking up to take more than a few yards off, and I'd definitely think about a strongly lofted set when I finally upgrade if that meant I could hit the club lofted like my current 7i more accurately than my current 7i because the shaft length and lie are set up like my current 8i but with 7i loft.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

The bag of the future is all drivers.  7 degree driver and 8.5 degree pitching wedge.  The shafts are also all 50 inches long.  Odyssey has just released their new 10-ball mallet putter.