Golf Losing Appeal

[darkhunter139]

Reading this thread makes me realize how lucky I got having a great priced course right near my house.  During the afternoon it only cost $15 to play and its in very nice condition for the price.

If I did not have this course by me I am not sure I would be able to afford to play, I got a student membership for $350 and that includes unlimited golf.  I feel like if there were more courses like this the game would be a lot more accessible to people.

All that stuff about throwing it out of the bunker and 6 inch holes is nonsense though, to me it would not even feel like golf if they did that.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Great post, no question golf is on the decline, but I don't know that it's because of large upscale golf course, hardcore marketing techniques by manufacturers who offer too many choices to new players, or even that it takes too long, I think most of the problems golf is facing today is due to the downfall of the economy and Tiger Woods, at least in the United States.

I would also certainly agree that the a major impact has been the downfall of the economy.     However, I believe that the game was starting to see cracks in the armor before the housing crisis and corresponding financial meltdowns.    The industry had a fairly thin veneer that made it appear relatively robust, and the economic issues simply shattered that veneer, but it was to going to come cracking apart anyway.

Regarding the pace-of-play issues as a concern, I personally don't think that is driving people from the game or preventing people from getting into the game, at least not in any significant numbers.     If I think back to when I moved to Los Angeles in '83, slow rounds were the norm there and we just accepted it.    In fact, I've found that LA golf courses actually play faster now than they did nearly 30 years ago.    The traffic getting to and from the course is a different matter, but if I look at that metropolis as an example it appears that the game went through its growth phase just fine.       It is frustrating to play behind slower players, but that's been part of golf for many decades.    And the difference between a fast round at around 4 hours and a slow round at 5 hours just isn't that much and not likely to impact how someone spends their day.

A few other factors that I didn't bring up in my earlier post but I'd consider significant are the norms for how kids spend their time now, the societal changes on our free time, particularly for young parents,  the declining availability of playing 9 holes, one that I'll call "selfish moron factor".

Kids used to "go out to play", and golf was often part of that fun.    Organized sports largely consisted of football or basketball practice after school, and there was some homework to do and perhaps a little TV, but outside of those kids tended to have a lot more free time than today.    It seems every kid I'm aware of has an activity calendar packed full of things to do, and a nice block of time on a weekend to go play golf just doesn't fit.

The same goes for their parents.   A very attractive marketing demographic are adults age 21-39, but that is prime parenting age and those parents have much of their own time now dedicated to shuttling their kids around to the many activities.   I've seen quite a few golf companions go by the wayside over the last decade or so because their time was so taken up with their kid's activities.

This time availability problem, for both parent and child, isn't solved by people not playing from the tips when they shouldn't - it just isn't a matter of speeding up play.    It is really a matter of breaking free a sufficient block of time.     And this is an area where 9 holes used to come into more play.

It seems that courses used to provide a lot more options to play 9 holes.   Perhaps they weren't as crowded and could deal with it better, but I recall many courses used to make it very easy to play 9 after work or school, or afternoons on a weekend.    And most looked at it financially as just half of playing 18, i.e. they didn't try to charge you 80% of the green fees for playing 18.   It was a great option to swing by the course on the way home, get in a quick 9 before dinner (or the other way around), and relax and decompress a bit.   Now I find very few courses that make this an attractive option - if a course does indeed have a 9 hole option, it is never that financially attractive.   It seems that twilight rates have instead taken the place of playing 9 holes, and the course charges you 3/4 of their normal rate and you just go squeeze in as many holes as you can.

Which brings me to my final factor in this analysis - the "selfish moron factor".    As Newtogolf says, it used to be a gentleman's game.   It seemed that decent etiquette used to be the norm, people would wave each other through, pick up after themselves, not load up the cooler with 6 packs, and just generally go around the course coexisting with their fellow golfers.   But just as we've seen in all other aspects of society, our social norms have changed and there is much more of an selfish attitude by people in general, and an attitude that rules are made for others.   We see it all the time on our roads, on TV, in the store, and sadly on the golf course.    Newtogolf, you mentioned that Tiger was an every man's link to golf and I agree, but perhaps we also find that John Daly was the "every selfish moronic" man's link to boorish golf.    Albert Einstein once said he can explain his theory of relativity as follows: when you talk to a pretty girl for an hour it seems like a minute, but sitting on a hot stove for a minute seems like an hour.    Similarly, spending time on the golf course having to deal with the selfish morons that are becoming more prevalent makes even a quick 4 hour round seem like a long frustrating day, while a long round spent in the pleasant company of intelligent and interesting playing companions makes the day seem too short.

So overall, the golf industry is not healthy.   Our societal factors have changed, making it far more difficult to find the time to play.    The equipment choices are confusing to new entrants to the game, and the price tag of the equipment is also a barrier.    Courses aren't as welcoming, and if they're inexpensive they are typically poorly kept and seem to attract far more of the idiots who can spoil a round, although the higher price courses certainly aren't immune.     All of these are deep structural problems which do not really have solutions, particularly little band aid fixes like a bigger cup or picking the proper set of tees.    Perhaps it is just a simple part of the cycle that all industries and societies must go through.

[newtogolf]

I agree 100% here, 9 holes is ideal most days for me because of my business and family life.  I can more easily find 2 hours to go play 9 holes than I can 4 -5 for 18.  I think golf course owners and management have become wise to this as well, and that's why they're charging 80% of the green fees to play 18 to just play 9.   It's like those bottomless pasta bowl deals, once you get someone to pay $12 for a bowl of pasta you're in the black unless you find someone that can eat 3 lbs of pasta in one sitting.  That's how golf courses are approaching it these days, you pay 80% for 9, and they don't care if you play another 9 for 20% more because they already recouped their costs and made a profit on the first 9.

The downside is people like me will opt to go to the range rather than play 9 when time is limited not because I don't have the money, but on principle.   I'm not going to pay 80% of 18 holes just to play 9 and I usually don't have time for 18.  Golf owners will eventually realize this and change their rates to maybe 60%, but until then they should expect to see it decline.

Originally Posted by Clambake

This time availability problem, for both parent and child, isn't solved by people not playing from the tips when they shouldn't - it just isn't a matter of speeding up play.    It is really a matter of breaking free a sufficient block of time.     And this is an area where 9 holes used to come into more play.

It seems that courses used to provide a lot more options to play 9 holes.   Perhaps they weren't as crowded and could deal with it better, but I recall many courses used to make it very easy to play 9 after work or school, or afternoons on a weekend.    And most looked at it financially as just half of playing 18, i.e. they didn't try to charge you 80% of the green fees for playing 18.   It was a great option to swing by the course on the way home, get in a quick 9 before dinner (or the other way around), and relax and decompress a bit.   Now I find very few courses that make this an attractive option - if a course does indeed have a 9 hole option, it is never that financially attractive.   It seems that twilight rates have instead taken the place of playing 9 holes, and the course charges you 3/4 of their normal rate and you just go squeeze in as many holes as you can.

[TourSpoon]

I believe that golf is in a decline partly because of the economy and partly because of the industry itself. I remember being part of the South Florida golf scene back in the early 90s as an apprentice with my brother. I quickly got out of the business for reasons outside this thread and thankfully was able to play until 2000 on my connections. After taking 10 years off of serious play I returned a year ago with some real observations about what has changed and what hasn't. The first thing I noticed that courses changed their approach. Back in the golf boom you were inconveniencing golf shop staff with your mere presence. They acted like they didn't need you. Last year I noticed that golf had become a more customer oriented practice because they couldn't afford to lose you to the course down the street. That and prices haven't really changed. The courses that I play at haven't gone up that much compared to inflation in the last 20 years. I also notice that their is a sudden push to get golf into the schools down here. I can only imagine that the equipment manufacturers along with other industry players are behind this to combat the lack of junior interest. In the age of year round travel sports, kids are specializing and don't have the time to explore golf. New upstarts like lacrosse, volleyball, etc are taking the youth who are looking for something a little more exciting. The last factor that I see already mentioned is the time factor. While my home course has a strict pace policy it was the time investment that keeps parents away from golf. I know that if I can't get around in 4 hours then it becomes a real deterrent. No one likes a 5 hour round. While the industry tried to self correct I will enjoy playing. Golf isn't as popular as it used to be and that is fine with me. I just want to make sure that it doesn't dry up to the point where more courses can't make it. There has to be a balance of decent, affordable golf that can be played in a reasonable amount of time.

[wmiller]

I'm going to catch hell for this (takes deep breath):

1. Get the people off the course that don't belong there. I'm talking about the ones like I played with yesterday and today. Two of them couldn't make proper contact with a ball if I'd held a 45 to their head. Had absolutely NO business on a golf course. Get to the range, take some lessons, and learn how to hit the golf ball. Even if it's only 150yds or so. But stay off the golf course until you can advance the ball far enough to maintain pace of play.

2. Play from the proper tees. The course should be responsible for enforcement! Two gentlemen I played with today, should have been playing from the forward tees. Period. One couldn't get it out past 20 yds or so, the other, about 100. I questioned (to myself of course) if they should even BE on a golf course. See number one...

3. Keep the ball in play. If you can't control a driver well enough to keep it within 5 yds (depending on course design) of the fairway, LEAVE IT IN THE BAG! Hit 3 wood, or hybrid, or whatever allows you to keep the ball in play. See number one...

4. Mandate that each golfer will attend, and graduate from, a short (2 day?) course in How to Play Golf. Complete with basic rules, etiquette, fixing divots, ball marks, raking traps, etc., etc.. Must present proof of attendance when paying green fees. No card, no play.

End of Rant   ;)

[Ringworld]

We are just preaching to the choir.

Just remember that when you go to a range you typically opt for a range with better facilities (newer balls, a practice chipping area, putting greens).  For a golf course with those amenities, it's like free money.  Balls are rotated once every 2-3 months.  That is the only really big expense.  The rest are the mats, turf, and some cups with flags.  It's the initial fixed cost that sets those facilities apart from just golf ranges.  I know of several courses that have updated these facilities in attempt to bolster their bottom line.  It does.

Personally spending money on the range and buy in bulk (membership card) for a deep discount is attractive.  For me though I get bored to easily.  Harder to concentrate on my game if I am constantly hitting balls.

For me practice is more situational.   Of course get your practice on the range but you never really know you can do a shot under pressure unless you're in that situation.  Can't do that on a golf range.  I can however encounter that playing golf which is why 9 holes is more attractive to me over practicing.  I guess I like the sizzle with the steak.

To that end that is why I think it's all about time.  Play a round (18 holes) in around 4 hours and folks will show up.  Have it go any longer and folks will shy away. Sure you can allot a certain amount of time to play golf but why should you?  When we were all taught the game, we were taught stewardship, pace of play and ready golf in addition to the mechanics of golf.  I do not think this is taught to today's golfer.  If it is then only to a select few.  Remember the rule book is a boring read.  I highly doubt the other 75% of golfers (non avid golfers) have read the rules so much as seen a copy of the rule book.  Unfortunately its the 25% of golfers (the avid golfers) that get stuck behind these guys LOL.    Heck even if you post ways to speed play I doubt that it will be followed.

They be moron golfers but they are the guys playing in the group ahead of you.  You have a choice then, either confront them or like me find another place to play or a different venue to play in.

[Bigtank]

I think golf is just another victim of the world….

A “gentleman’s” game…Have you talked to a teenager today?  I am only 30, and I am dumbfounded at what I see on a daily basis.  My business brings me in contact with teens and twenty-something’s quite often.  The days of common courtesy are dead!  They are appalled that you would ask them not to call your patron dude or hey you…they feel it violates their “rights” if you ask them to work without a bonus; their salary alone is not enough.  We have a generation that feels entitled to do whatever it is that makes them happy, regardless of whom impacts as long as they are satisfied.

Then there are the people raising these entitled brats.  The “do your best” parents; the sanitizer carrying, helmet wearing, you can do anything you put your mind too crowd.  I understand our kids are our most prized treasure…but let them fall down and eat some dirt every once in a while.  Do you know there is a movement to remove score for children’s athletics?  I mean if you never learn that it sucks to lose, what is going to make you strive and work hard to win?  You must learn to lose, before you can win.  We now have a generation of sissified individuals that want a ribbon for showing up.  To quote the Movie “Meet the Fockers”…”I didn’t know they even made a 9 ^th place ribbon…”

I’m fortunate enough to place a course fairly local to my home, where the owner and staff are not afraid to ask someone to speed up, or offer them a rain check for another less busy day.  I have become spoiled with 4 hour rounds of golf.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by Bigtank

I have become spoiled with 4 hour rounds of golf.

Ditto.

[darkhunter139]

Originally Posted by Bigtank

I think golf is just another victim of the world….

A “gentleman’s” game…Have you talked to a teenager today?  I am only 30, and I am dumbfounded at what I see on a daily basis.  My business brings me in contact with teens and twenty-something’s quite often.  The days of common courtesy are dead!  They are appalled that you would ask them not to call your patron dude or hey you…they feel it violates their “rights” if you ask them to work without a bonus; their salary alone is not enough.  We have a generation that feels entitled to do whatever it is that makes them happy, regardless of whom impacts as long as they are satisfied.

Then there are the people raising these entitled brats.  The “do your best” parents; the sanitizer carrying, helmet wearing, you can do anything you put your mind too crowd.  I understand our kids are our most prized treasure…but let them fall down and eat some dirt every once in a while.  Do you know there is a movement to remove score for children’s athletics?  I mean if you never learn that it sucks to lose, what is going to make you strive and work hard to win?  You must learn to lose, before you can win.  We now have a generation of sissified individuals that want a ribbon for showing up.  To quote the Movie “Meet the Fockers”…”I didn’t know they even made a 9th place ribbon…”

I’m fortunate enough to place a course fairly local to my home, where the owner and staff are not afraid to ask someone to speed up, or offer them a rain check for another less busy day.  I have become spoiled with 4 hour rounds of golf.

 "The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."

-Socrates*

People have been saying that for centuries. I don't know why but it really bothers me when I hear people blame "today's youth" for things like this.

[uttexas]

There is a shocking lack of short par 3 courses, probably because they don't make a lot of money (no cart fee, no beverage person, no lunch at the turn). There are over 100 public golf courses in DFW, and I can only think of two par three courses. Par 3 courses are a nice transition from learning the game on the driving range/putting green/chipping area to playing 18 holes. Thus, many beginners are learning on 18 long holes of golf. Learning on a par 3 encourages fast play (just bring an iron, a wedge, and a putter) Par 3 courses can be played in under an hour for less that $8. If there were more par 3 courses, there would be more golfers and more golfers better prepared to play 18.

[JCoop]

As a new golfer, I think dumbing down the game is a mistake. I've been an athlete my whole life, being involved in tennis and martial arts for decades. I have only recently taken up golf in the last year and played my first 9 holes on a golf course 3 weeks ago. I think golf has a terrific future. I can't wait to tee off again. I chip around the yard and pop 9 irons towards a stick out in the back field. I'm at least partially attracted to golf because it's not easy to be good. It is the striving for success that is perhaps the core of golf, based on my newb view of the game. Followed very closely by the social element of bonding with friends.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

... Almost everything you mentioned is the golfers fault, not the course owner, cart girl or manufacturers.  Maybe golf should licensed and as part of licensing you would be required to attend a class that explains the basic rules of golf, proper etiquette, and playing ready golf. ...

Yooo! A First Tee program for big kids. You may be onto something. A decent golf clinic does this to a certain degree: combines basic tactics with basic culture.

Also, I suspect someone will finally mesh learning style to golf instruction. Almost all people have a preferred learning style: auditory, visual, or tactile (hands on). Maybe some golf training methods work better for people with a certain learning style.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

As for the obsession with distance, I agree it's insane.  I must be the only guy that's tried a new driver and didn't hit it an inch further than my current driver cause everyone else tells me they gain 10 yards everytime they switch.  I figure the average driving distance in 10 years at the current rate will be at least 400 yards.

Distance is one of the big separators. On a decent driver shot, I carry the ball about 220 yds. Half the pros on tour hit it 300+ yards. In an Adams golf TV ad, long drive dude Jamie Sadlowski hits a 7 iron 270 yds.

So, why not have separate classes of "slower" golf balls for competition amateurs and, say, tour pros? Throttle back their yardage potential, and courses wouldn't have to be so long. From an economic standpoint, making the back tees 7,600 yds. long and the men's senior tees 5,600 yds. long eats up a lot of real estate between sets of tee boxes.  Fewer tee box options would cut down on construction and maintenance costs.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

... Good points, which again maybe that's where permits or licensing needs to come into play.  Education, and enforcement are better alternative than 6" holes and throwing the ball out of the sand trap.  Technology may some day eliminate searching for lost balls, but until RFID is feasible, golf courses that were worried about pace of play and time lost searching for balls could assign caddies to each group. ...

In the late 1960s when riding carts came on strong, most foursomes started hiring a forecaddie. This person ran out to the landing area, marked balls in the rough with a wooden stick, and raked the traps and tended the pins for the group. The forward eyes and the greenside assistance helped keep play moving nicely. But, people who were paying for expensive carts figured they could find money for theri next sleeve of balls if they ditched the forecaddies. Enter the era of slooooow play.

If you didn't assign one to each group, you could assign a stationary spotter to trouble holes. Most courses have identifiable bottleneck holes, ones with blind tee shots (can't see landing area), funny bounces around water hazards, or fairways the width of a grocery-store aisle.  They could mark shots in the rough with bright pastel stakes so the golfers could find them. Try this out at your next scramble, and let us know how it works.

Another move to speed up play would to cut back (literally) on the number of trees on the courses. And mow fairways wider. Fairways got a lot tighter after World War II. For details, visit last week's thread:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/46838/how-many-tree-s-on-a-golf-course

[nevets88]

Slow play, the economy (green fees and money and time to play), Woods not in the news, winning - I think these 3 mainly are the cause of a decline.

Golf will always remain a niche sport though - it'll always be played by a small percentage of people, with ups and downs, in that way it's like classical music. It's time consuming - compared to running, basketball, tennis, etc....

If 10% of people play golf regularly or more, to get a 25% increase or prevent a 25% decrease, I think faster play, cheaper, easier to get to courses, better instruction, a telegenic player or players or a great rivalry and a strong economy will get more people to play.

[LankyLefty]

Golf is overpriced.. it is. Always has been, probably always will be. It should come as no surprise that at a time when salaries are shrinking and many costs are rising that people would put it on the back burner.

I don't think it is losing appeal I think people are realizing how ridiculous paying 100 bucks to go hit a little while ball in a field for 4 hours is. As with all businesses when their is more supply then demand they must adjust and so shall golf.

[ochmude]

Among people I know who have golfed at least once, would like to golf regularly, but choose not to do so, the most common reason I've heard for them not golfing more often is one of the most fundamental aspects of amateur golf, the foursome.  I can completely understand it as well.  I know at least a dozen people with a full set of clubs sitting in their garage, shed, or basement that would love to get out for nine holes at least once a week.  The problem is that finding four adults with full-time jobs, families, home projects, travel commitments, etc. who all magically have the same three to four hour block of time free for nine holes* is really not easy at all.  They could show up as a single and get lumped in with another group that has an open slot, but the fact is they would rather not golf at all than golf with strangers, so that's exactly what they end up doing.  I realize it's tough for a course to be welcoming of singles and still stay in the black as a single occupies as much space on the course as a foursome, but at only 25% of the income, so I don't really know what the solution might be.  I can say for myself, though, that if I found a course, even a 9-hole course, that accommodated singles and only grouped them if they requested it, I'd be there at least 3 afternoons every week, rain or shine.

*That accounts for the total time investment to play nine holes, just just the time spent on the course actually playing.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

In the late 1960s when riding carts came on strong, most foursomes started hiring a forecaddie. This person ran out to the landing area, marked balls in the rough with a wooden stick, and raked the traps and tended the pins for the group. The forward eyes and the greenside assistance helped keep play moving nicely. But, people who were paying for expensive carts figured they could find money for theri next sleeve of balls if they ditched the forecaddies. Enter the era of slooooow play.

If you didn't assign one to each group, you could assign a stationary spotter to trouble holes. Most courses have identifiable bottleneck holes, ones with blind tee shots (can't see landing area), funny bounces around water hazards, or fairways the width of a grocery-store aisle.  They could mark shots in the rough with bright pastel stakes so the golfers could find them. Try this out at your next scramble, and let us know how it works.

Another move to speed up play would to cut back (literally) on the number of trees on the courses. And mow fairways wider. Fairways got a lot tighter after World War II. For details, visit last week's thread:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/46838/how-many-tree-s-on-a-golf-course

I have forcaddied before, it works really well. When I used to caddy, groups in carts would hire us just to forecaddy. Easy money, but we probably saved each person in the group half a dozen strokes.

[newtogolf]

I agree, as a high handicapper it's intimidating to go to a course on your own and become the 3rd or 4th, especially if they are much lower handicaps.  The one time I tried going alone last year was not very pleasant.  The other two guys were friends, and good golfers.  While they didn't say anything to me, I could tell they were not happy having a 3rd added to their party, especially one that wasn't very good.  It was a long day, and not much fun so I've not tried it again since.

Originally Posted by ochmude

Among people I know who have golfed at least once, would like to golf regularly, but choose not to do so, the most common reason I've heard for them not golfing more often is one of the most fundamental aspects of amateur golf, the foursome.

I can say for myself, though, that if I found a course, even a 9-hole course, that accommodated singles and only grouped them if they requested it, I'd be there at least 3 afternoons every week, rain or shine.

[ghalfaire]

I like the 9 hole idea for getting more "new" golfers in to the game.  Where I live there are a few 9 hole courses and most are family friendly (most 18 hole courses are not).  I take my Grandkids to play at a couple of the 9 hole courses fairly regularly because they 1) don't require a second mortgage for green fees, 2) it doesn't take a half a day which the kids don't seem to have these days, 3) we are welcome and there will be other Grandparent and Grandkid playing so the "environment" is much more friendly, and finally 4) the kids enjoy playing where there are other kids and people who enjoy spending time with them and don't worry much about pace of play.  BTW the three of us usually complete the 9 hole round in less than two hours in spite of looking for balls and 8 year olds 50 yard drives and so have time for ice cream cones after and all of us are welcome at the grill.