Hank Haney Quote: "You cannot correct a slice hitter, they first must become a hook hitter" - ish

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by The Tin Man

My first lesson (not from Haney) was "how to hook".  Not really....but that's what it looked like.

Anyway, when I slice I'm lost, but a hook can lead me back to a playable game.

the fix is the same..just in the opposite direction.

[Chas]

You don't need to learn to hook to fix a slice.

I would suppose you're right but, for me at least, when I started to hit some hooks - and be able to do it at will - I understood what a slice-inducing action FELT like and therein lay the cure. Now my misses are usually pushes or hooks.

[Rudyprimo]

Even though a lot of guys bash Haney on here, he's one of the best instructors around. He's been rated one of the top 25 instructors by Golf Digest since 1983. He has his own way of teaching though and I don't think everyone can relate to it. That's just his way of teaching slicers to start hitting the ball with a draw. He's had great success teaching that way, so it works. Besides teaching over 200 pros in his career, he was also the NCAA Division 1 Golf Coach of the year in 1998. Tiger Woods had a much higher rate of winning tournaments, 35%, with Haney as his swing coach than before, 27%, and whatever it would work out to be with Sean Foley. Paradox wrote: Can you not teach someone to throw a baseball right handed until they've thrown one left handed? Can you not teach someone how to write left handed if they haven't written with their right first? To me, it sounds like "hey instructors...use this line on your students and you'll be able to charge for a few more lessons!" Your analogy makes no sense at all. Haney isn't teaching right handed golfers to play golf left handed. He's teaching them to hook and then draw the ball.

[Phil McGleno]

You put way too much emphasis on those stupid lists. Instructors know who good instructors are even if they disagree with them. Those lists are entirely political. Someone's pet goldfish would make the list if the thing were announced as Rory's instructor. [quote name="Rudyprimo" url="/t/57746/hank-haney-quote-you-cannot-correct-a-slice-hitter-they-first-must-become-a-hook-hitter-ish/18#post_708743"]Even though a lot of guys bash Haney on here, he's one of the best instructors around. He's been rated one of the top 25 instructors by Golf Digest since 1983. He has his own way of teaching though and I don't think everyone can relate to it. That's just his way of teaching slicers to start hitting the ball with a draw. He's had great success teaching that way, so it works. Besides teaching over 200 pros in his career, he was also the NCAA Division 1 Golf Coach of the year in 1998. Tiger Woods had a much higher rate of winning tournaments, 35%, with Haney as his swing coach than before, 27%, and whatever it would work out to be with Sean Foley.[/quote]

[newtogolf]

The way I've heard Haney explain it, he's big on hip turn and turning over the hands.  If you're hooking I guess it means to him you're doing both which he considers better than not doing it at all and slicing.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

Even though a lot of guys bash Haney on here, he's one of the best instructors around. He's been rated one of the top 25 instructors by Golf Digest since 1983. He has his own way of teaching though and I don't think everyone can relate to it.

That's just his way of teaching slicers to start hitting the ball with a draw. He's had great success teaching that way, so it works. Besides teaching over 200 pros in his career, he was also the NCAA Division 1 Golf Coach of the year in 1998. Tiger Woods had a much higher rate of winning tournaments, 35%, with Haney as his swing coach than before, 27%, and whatever it would work out to be with Sean Foley.

Paradox wrote: Can you not teach someone to throw a baseball right handed until they've thrown one left handed? Can you not teach someone how to write left handed if they haven't written with their right first? To me, it sounds like "hey instructors...use this line on your students and you'll be able to charge for a few more lessons!"

Your analogy makes no sense at all. Haney isn't teaching right handed golfers to play golf left handed. He's teaching them to hook and then draw the ball.

You really think it's that difficult to take promising and great players, and make them a tad better?

Haney has always been known for having a great eye and diagnosing issues.

The issue has always been whether he can fix the issue.

Sure, his instructors can take someone like me who hadn't picked up a club in 25 years, and help me get from 120 to 80 in a couple of years. But there was a lack of consistency because his teaching system is flawed. They push and pull instead of explain or offer the entire picture.  But having gone through TGM and S&T;, there is a difference. In the latter two methods, they respect the student and offer explanations based on a system of fundamentals. They explain the golf swing. What I've found is consistently decent play - Haney's people did not offer that - there was no grasp of the golf swing. It was "if you're doing this, you need to do this." Their system was to over exaggerate what they thought you should be doing. The problem was - they would allow the over exaggeration to set in, and then they wondered what was wrong.

Anyway, yes, Hank has a great set of eyes for the swing.

[AmazingWhacker]

I fixed my slice without learning to hook the ball.  I used to be a horrible slicer - now I hit a fade that is almost imperceptible with short irons and moves about 10 yards with driver.  My misses are tops, thins and what I like to call "smother hooks" - where the ball goes dead left about 20 yards on the ground.  I still hit the occassional big slice - especially with the driver.  I can sometimes hook the ball but not reliably enough to try and do it except on the range.

[Paradox]

Rudy..the analogy makes perfect sense because you don't have to do the complete opposite in order to achieve success.

Why create two potential problem shots for a golfer when you can just work on one?  Why do you need to start hooking the ball to then be able to straighten it back out the other way?

[saevel25]

He's wrong, i was a chronic slicer, i played a straight pull for most of my career, then went to a pull slice because i corrected my alignment and the only way to hit the ball with a pull to a target is to pull cut the ball. Then it started to slowly work its way to were the ball starts right of my target and i either hit a push draw, push, or a push fade. I play a very light push that it almost looks straight. I am still working on the swing path.

I see his point though, to go from a slicer to hitting a draw the easiest way is to do a complete correction of the swing path to get them exagerating so much you get a hook. Because now they have inside swing path with there closed clubface (which is part of a pull slice), now he has to just change the grip or club face alignment. But there are many methods.. For him, the quick turn around is probably better for his image, and business than the other method.

[mdl]

I sort of both agree and disagree with this.  When I've tried this kind of thing on my own I tend to get all snappy with the hands and hit huge pull hooks and then in trying to correct it whip across the ball with the club face even more open than my natural shot with the long clubs and hit high short push slices.

On the other hand, on days when I'm trying this when I can hit hooks or too big draws that start a tiny bit pushed or at least straight (ie, not a pull draw/hook), I have sometimes found getting that feeling useful and can then tone it down and hit nice baby push draws.

I guess I'm saying that it's not necessary but could be useful for some students.

[Chas]

The way I've heard Haney explain it, he's big on hip turn and turning over the hands.  If you're hooking I guess it means to him you're doing both which he considers better than not doing it at all and slicing.

That makes a lot of sense. In golf, as in all other sports, finding the optimum amount of [name your move] is key. Too much or too little gets you into trouble. So as a student it is useful to experience the extremes, in the endless effort to find and keep the sweet spot.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Rudy..the analogy makes perfect sense because you don't have to do the complete opposite in order to achieve success.

Why create two potential problem shots for a golfer when you can just work on one?  Why do you need to start hooking the ball to then be able to straighten it back out the other way?

I agree with Rudy regarding your analogy (learning a hook is not same as quitting and starting over left handed, even if for some people that might be an easier route) ... but I agree with you that creating a hook means now you go up to the tee with double the miss opportunity.  On the other hand, I am giving Haney the benefit of the doubt that when he says you must learn how to hit a hook that he doesn't mean you have to ingrain it into your swing such that now you have two possible flaws.  I think he is just referring to the feel.

I think the idea that a life long chronic OTT pull slicer (I'm specifically thinking of my dad in this case) would greatly benefit from the understanding of what it FEELS like to hit a hook.  (Like Chas in post 20)  My dads shots vary from a slight pull with a slight fade ending up in the middle of the fairway at the good end of the spectrum, to a nasty 20-30* pull straight left.  The best ones are still just eh, and I have never seen him hit a draw or hook of any kind, and for that matter, not even a push.  When things start going bad (sometimes on the first tee, sometimes as late as the second hole) he starts "correcting" by lining his feet up further and further right, and the problem gets worse.

I've always thought that if I could even once get him to take an exaggerated inside out swing and understand what it feels like, that would be the beginning of the road to straighter, more solid shots.  Would it work?  I don't know, but the better understanding of ball flight and feels couldn't hurt, could it?  (He's not going to get any worse)

As far as Haney saying that you MUST learn to hit a hook to get rid of a slice ... I defer to the teachers and good golfers on this thread who have already "debunked" that one.

[zipazoid]

Not saying I agree or disagree with Haney's point, but consider this -

Most beginners slice the ball. So wouldn't it be to their benefit to at least learn what causes a hook, and to try to do so?

Yes I understand the concept of two wrongs don't make a right, but part of learning this game is learning how to hit it both ways. Eventually every golfer will have to know how to slice AND hook the ball. So wouldn't it make sense for a chronic slicer to learn how to hook it?

[nevets88]

Many moons ago, I went from a slice to a hook on my own. You can still flip and hit a hook. Your low spot can be nowhere near forward enough and you can still hook.

While I can see what he is getting at, more in-to-out swing, I don't agree with it. The commonality of all good players is the low point.

If I were to phrase something along Haney's train of thought and I am no instructor, so caveat emptor:

You ain't getting better 'til your low point of the swing is under your lead shoulder and you hit that spot all the time. There are different ways of getting there and you have to find the best way that fits you.

[Jwat381]

I played a round with my uncle this weekend, and it was the first round of golf I've ever played that I played a draw the whole day. I lined up on #1 to play a fade (it's my safe shot that I know, even though I've been working on the draw) and I duck hooked it into the bushes. So from #2-#18 I was lining up to play a draw and I found a lot of fairways and out drove my uncle, who has been playing for 25+ years, regularly. It felt so weird to be aiming right of the fairway!