Slow Play on the PGA Tour, Tiger Shares His Opinion

[Paradox]

I don't think they could get by with singling guys out like that, though.  I mean, theoretically, everyone is on the clock at the start of their round anyway.  Its only when they fall behind the "suggested time" that we hear about a clock.

Pro's should definitely be able to play each hole in 15 minutes or less...thats a 4.5 hour round tops.  Outside of each player being under a 1 minute shot clock for every shot from the start of each round..I don't think theres any "clear" way to do it.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by x129

Here is a question. Is a 40s shot clock fair? I would argue that it isn't and something like a total for the hole (i.e. 120s for a par3, 160 par 4) would be better.  If you tee off in 20s, I think it is fair you get another 20s to think about your 2nd shot or read that tricky putt. Heck I would even carry it over a couple of holes (roll over time). It would encourage people to play fast and at the same time allow them to take time when needed.

I don't see how a per-hole clock can possibly work without running afoul of the rules of golf. If your ball goes missing, the rules give you five minutes to search for it. If you have a bad hole and lose two balls, you could easily go over any reasonable per-hole time limit. The rule is now essentially penalizing you for taking full advantage of the rule.

IMO the rule needs to be careful to penalize unreasonably slow play, not just slow play. There are reasonable reasons a golfer may play slowly for part of a round.

[laconic517]

when do they start to time you when you are put on the clock?  I can see that as being a huge variable.  You have guys who take forever to pull a club, but when they do they hit it, then you got guys like Kevin Na who stand over the ball for ages before making a swing.

Also, if the rest of the field is slow and you know you are going to be waiting to hit every shot you have, it behooves you to slow things down a bit so you aren't hitting and waiting all the damn time.  If you are going to wait on the next teebox regardless, I see no problem with getting an extra few looks at your putt.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zeg

I don't see how a per-hole clock can possibly work without running afoul of the rules of golf. If your ball goes missing, the rules give you five minutes to search for it. If you have a bad hole and lose two balls, you could easily go over any reasonable per-hole time limit. The rule is now essentially penalizing you for taking full advantage of the rule.

IMO the rule needs to be careful to penalize unreasonably slow play, not just slow play. There are reasonable reasons a golfer may play slowly for part of a round.

I would assume they'd make acceptions (as I imagine they do now) in cases of lost balls and rules questions.

I guess if I was being totally honest, I don't really care.  When the golf comes on the TV at noon, and it says it'll end at 3pm, I'll be damned if it doesn't usually come pretty darn close to that every singe time (barring playoffs obviously).  So from a TV watching fan's perspective I don't really see a problem at all.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

He said that the rules officials all know who the slow players are, its not a secret, and they even have them all ranked by speed.  So his suggestion was to take the 10 players or so off the bottom of that list and put them on the clock Thursday on the first tee.  That seems like something that might work.

Unfortunately, that is prejudicial.  You are singling out certain players, which is not fair to all because others may also be slow, but not perceived as such.  (Think Roger Goodell in the NFL).  I has to be one rule fits all or it will never fly.

Quote:

I don't think I need to prove anything to anyone on this. I've watched it countless times with my own eyes, and that should be good enough to throw in my comment on this thread. Many other players are just as slow too, never said they weren't. But this discussion is about Tiger's comments in particular.

Walk18, your comments are fine, but sometimes data are better to support an argument.  I get a different perception of Tiger.  I think he is average on time. He is deliberate and has a very specific routine that takes about the same time every shot.  He is very consistent.  I perceive the slow players as the ones who keep changing their minds and pulling out different clubs.  I like Phil Mickelson, but I think he is much slower that Tiger.  But, I have never actually timed him, so it may just be perception.  But he always seems to start talking to Bones after the other player hits and spends a lot of time talking.  Again, maybe it is just perception.

Both are on camera a lot.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Unfortunately, that is prejudicial.  You are singling out certain players, which is not fair to all because others may also be slow, but not perceived as such.  (Think Roger Goodell in the NFL).  I has to be one rule fits all or it will never fly.

I got the impression that he was referring to a list of players that was actually based on stats, not perception. (Oh, and the guys name I had forgot earlier is Rex Hoggard)  And, I don't think its any more prejudical than, for example, Roger Goodell having a quicker trigger to suspend James Harrison than he would to suspend Troy Palumalu for the same illegal hit.  Or Ron Artest getting suspended 7 games for an elbow that would have gotten a shorter suspension had Kevin Durant been the culprit.  You get a negative reputation and you have consequences to face that others might not.

If the goal is to speed up play, then the slower players should be pushed harder.  If you don't want to be on that list, play faster.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Unfortunately, that is prejudicial.  You are singling out certain players, which is not fair to all because others may also be slow, but not perceived as such.  (Think Roger Goodell in the NFL).  I has to be one rule fits all or it will never fly.

It wouldn't have to be prejudiced.  Time every single shot that every single pro hits and use that to create an average timer per shot list.  They play so many rounds and hit so many shots under so many different circumstances that all of the variations would very substantially balance each other put and make the list a fair comparison.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I got the impression that he was referring to a list of players that was actually based on stats, not perception. (Oh, and the guys name I had forgot earlier is Rex Hoggard)  And, I don't think its any more prejudical than, for example, Roger Goodell having a quicker trigger to suspend James Harrison than he would to suspend Troy Palumalu for the same illegal hit.  Or Ron Artest getting suspended 7 games for an elbow that would have gotten a shorter suspension had Kevin Durant been the culprit.  You get a negative reputation and you have consequences to face that others might not.

Your examples of James Harrison and Ron Artest aren't about negative reputation, they are about repeat offenses.

[x129]

It starts when you are at your ball and it is your turn. I am not sure if there is something to eliminate walking slow. Right now if the rest of the field is slow, it doesn't matter as you will never be on the clock so it doesn't matter. It is only if your about 10 mins out of position (1 hole) that you can be put on the clock.  It is pretty tough for the leaders to end up on the clock as there is almost always a back up in front of them.

Originally Posted by laconic517

when do they start to time you when you are put on the clock?  I can see that as being a huge variable.  You have guys who take forever to pull a club, but when they do they hit it, then you got guys like Kevin Na who stand over the ball for ages before making a swing.

Also, if the rest of the field is slow and you know you are going to be waiting to hit every shot you have, it behooves you to slow things down a bit so you aren't hitting and waiting all the damn time.  If you are going to wait on the next teebox regardless, I see no problem with getting an extra few looks at your putt.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Your examples of James Harrison and Ron Artest aren't about negative reputation, they are about repeat offenses.

It's both.  Because they have repeat offenses in the past, they have developed a negative reputation.  Artest had not been suspended for anything this season as far as I can recall.  He elbowed James Harden two weeks ago, and there was all kinds of speculation about how long his suspension might be  (Anywhere from 1 game to the entire season)  He didn't get 7 games because it was his 2nd or 3rd offense and its mandated.  He got it on reputation.

[boogielicious]

It still goes back to Tiger's original suggestion of a stroke penalty.  It would apply to everyone and not just the slow players whether perceived or not.  The penalty would apply to all.  Now the caddies would need stop watches for their players, which may actually help.

Or, this is just a thought, the PGA could steal the play clock idea from NFL stadiums and have them set up behind the greens.  Players would know exactly how much time they have.  It could begin flashing red in the last 5 seconds, like in the NBA!  Rolex could provide the clocks with a big Sponsored by ROLEX above it.  I can see it now.

"Oh, Tiger didn't get that one off in time.  Let's go to instant replay.  What do you see Sir Nick?"

"Well, it looks like the clock was at zero when Tiger was at P5.  Tough luck on that one.  Add a stroke I'm afraid."

[sean_miller]

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

[newtogolf]

I don't think he's wasting any more time than it takes to answer a question on these issues.  In most instances, Tiger was at a press conference or interview and they asked him the question.  Because he's Tiger it gets blown out of proportion as though he made a major statement about the game instead of the simple answer he gave to a question from a reporter.  If he doesn't answer he's arrogant and when he does people think he's wasting his time worrying about belly putters and slow play.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

As I recall, last time Tiger tried to not answer questions from the media, he got blasted for that too. Something about Miceli and death stares comes to mind.

[jamo]

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

Well now we're getting into the "we don't want our athletes to be robots but let's jump all over them when they actually profess an opinion on something" territory, no? He was asked a question, and he answered it. I doubt slow play keeps him up at night or he spends his free time trying to crack the slow play code. I'd like to think if Phil or Bubba said this I'd have the same reaction (as long as it wasn't Ben Crane). We seem to have a new slow play thread here every week, after all.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

I don't think he's calling press conferences just to talk about slow play.

And I'll support anyone, even Rory Sabbatini, who is against slow play (on the topic of slow play, at least).

[zeg]

Originally Posted by jamo

I doubt slow play keeps him up at night or he spends his free time trying to crack the slow play code.

I cracked that one.

up up down down left right left right b a stack tilt

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Whether or not Tiger is a slow player and a hypocrite or a player concerned about the Tour on television, one thing is certain. He should spend more time worrying about his golf game than slow play, belly putters, and justifying his Major Championship tantrums. Just play golf, Tiger. Let the Tour sort out the details. If this was Phil or Bubba, the Tiger fanboys would be trashing them left and right, but now? Let's all talk about this new problem called "slow play".

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I don't think he's wasting any more time than it takes to answer a question on these issues.  In most instances, Tiger was at a press conference or interview and they asked him the question.  Because he's Tiger it gets blown out of proportion as though he made a major statement about the game instead of the simple answer he gave to a question from a reporter.  If he doesn't answer he's arrogant and when he does people think he's wasting his time worrying about belly putters and slow play.

Originally Posted by jamo

Well now we're getting into the "we don't want our athletes to be robots but let's jump all over them when they actually profess an opinion on something" territory, no? He was asked a question, and he answered it. I doubt slow play keeps him up at night or he spends his free time trying to crack the slow play code.

I'd like to think if Phil or Bubba said this I'd have the same reaction (as long as it wasn't Ben Crane). We seem to have a new slow play thread here every week, after all.

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think he's calling press conferences just to talk about slow play.

And I'll support anyone, even Rory Sabbatini, who is against slow play (on the topic of slow play, at least).

Nice to see several slap-downs of our resident gadfly.  I was planning the same response, then I saw all of you jumping on it.  Well done.

[bplewis24]

So, for the first time ever I was actually interested in watching an LPGA tour event, because yesterday I saw some girl named V Hurst advance to the semifinals and I liked what I saw.  Anyhow, I recorded it, which sucks because the Spain match play event ran over and so I didn't get to see any of her match.  But that is beside the point:

I was a bit shocked to see Morgan Pressel get penalized for slow play on the par 3 12th hole.  She won the hole to go 3 up, and then was informed on the next tee box that she had violated rules and was penalized by the loss of that hole.  So she ended up being 1up instead of 3 up. The Golf Network seemed alarmed a bit by this, as if this is pretty rare.  I'm wondering about the timing of this.  It had a huge impact on the match.

Hearing the post-round discussion on this was interesting as they seemed to be conflicted by the implementation of this rule.  They also thought Pressel handed it well, but I don't think it's coincidence that a couple holes later, Pressel accused Munoz of touching her (Munoz') line during a practice stroke and thought a penalty should have been assessed.

Brandon