Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[brocks]

The Supreme Court also correctly ruled that walking and fatigue from it are not a significant part of the game.  The PGA didn't prove to the court that making an accommodation for Martin would fundamentally alter the game itself and the tournaments.  It also stated that concerning fatigue, Martin with his disability is more fatigued than any of the healthy golfers are.

I don't see what difference that makes. If you gave me a two-mile head start, I'd still be more tired than any of the Kenyans by the time we were halfway through the Boston Marathon, but that wouldn't have anything to do with how fair it was. [quote]  I'm glad someone brought up Ken Venturi when he was delirious at the US Open because of the heat.  What did the PGA do after that?  They made changes to where they only played 18 holes per day instead of 36.  They didn't want their golfers fatigued like Venturi was.  They want them to be able to play their best without fatigue entering the equation.  [/quote] Not wanting golfers to drop dead on the course is a lot different from saying fatigue plays no part. [quote]There's no reason for a healthy golfer to get so fatigued that he can't make a good swing anymore. [/quote] Good isn't good enough to win a PGA event. When you are hitting 300+ yard drives to 20 yard wide fairways, a fraction of a degree in the clubface angle can make the difference between hitting the fairway or hitting it OB. And an amateur might be happy if his approach ends up anywhere on the green, but at courses like Augusta, if your ball lands a foot away from your target, it might end up 50 feet farther away from the hole. The fact that you can still make some kind of a swing when you're tired has nothing to do with being able to play at the highest level. One star golfer after another has testified that fatigue makes a huge difference in precision, and people who've never won a PGA event, let alone some old guys in robes, are in no position to say they're wrong. They have the power to say that it doesn't matter, but that's not the same thing. [quote] Someone wrote that Ben Hogan quit golfing because his injured legs couldn't handle it anymore.  That's not true either.  He was 59 when he retired from the PGA.  How long do you think he was going to play? [/quote] Fatigue kept Hogan from playing in the PGA championship from the time he had his accident until the time they ended the match play format, which required several 36-hole days in a row. Look it up. He never played it during the entire decade of the 50's.

[iacas]

Rudyprimo's argument is so weak I'm tempted to respond. I won't. I just want to be on record as saying that it made me laugh.

Edit: Saved.

P.S. Brocks, you went easy on him, but at least highlighted a few of the gaping holes.

[ScT1]

I'm fine with making an exception for Casey Martin and don't feel it opens the floodgates to ridiculous exemptions. I find it much better fitting to the overall spirit of the game that he is given this accommodation which will allow him to compete and put his golfing skills to the test.

But I was watching the Golf Channel last night and Martin came on the The Golf Fix program. It was interesting to hear him talk about his swing and what he needs to do because of his right leg. He sounds very stack and tilt! He said he needs to keep his weight on his left side and get it more left when he makes his swing through the ball.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Let the man ride.  Hell let em all ride if they want to.  I ride most of the time and I consider what I'm doing as playing golf.

[newtogolf]

That's the point actually.  Most of us believe if Casey rides they should all have the option to ride, those that opt not to have that right and understand the potential disadvantage they have.  The PGA by only allowing Casey to ride in a cart has given him an advantage over his competition.

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Let the man ride.  Hell let em all ride if they want to.  I ride most of the time and I consider what I'm doing as playing golf.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That's the point actually.  Most of us believe if Casey rides they should all have the option to ride, those that opt not to have that right and understand the potential disadvantage they have.  The PGA by only allowing Casey to ride in a cart has given him an advantage over his competition.

I would imagine barely being able to walk has it's disadvantages on the course too.  Maybe we could compromise and get him a SegWay.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That's the point actually.  Most of us believe if Casey rides they should all have the option to ride, those that opt not to have that right and understand the potential disadvantage they have.  The PGA by only allowing Casey to ride in a cart has given him an advantage over his competition.

But they're not disabled. They can walk for 4 days for 5-6 hours. Casey can not. I understand if he can't handle that - maybe he shouldn't play.

We have disabled parking at entrances to shops so people with disabilities don't have to walk 50 meters from their car to get their groceries. Yet - we argue when a disabled guy needs to use a cart instead of potentially walking around 24,000 yards and participate in a US Open? - Let him cart it.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

But they're not disabled. They can walk for 4 days for 5-6 hours. Casey can not. I understand if he can't handle that - maybe he shouldn't play.

We have disabled parking at entrances to shops so people with disabilities don't have to walk 50 meters from their car to get their groceries. Yet - we argue when a disabled guy needs to use a cart instead of potentially walking around 24,000 yards and participate in a US Open? - Let him cart it.

Totally agree.  The skill in golf is hitting the ball, not walking to it.

[Phil McGleno]

You're not going to get many actual players to agree with you. There's more to walking around the course and the endurance it takes and so on than any of the "Yes" people seem to give credit. I taught a guy who got in a car accident, won a few events on some lower Tours, but had to stop because he couldn't walk six days a week even if he only played nine holes during the practice rounds. Simply couldn't do it and you cart rider hackers are here postulating on what its like to play the PGA Tour. Nice. [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/144#post_723622"]Totally agree.  The skill in golf is hitting the ball, not walking to it. [/quote]

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

You're not going to get many actual players to agree with you. There's more to walking around the course and the endurance it takes and so on than any of the "Yes" people seem to give credit. I taught a guy who got in a car accident, won a few events on some lower Tours, but had to stop because he couldn't walk six days a week even if he only played nine holes during the practice rounds. Simply couldn't do it and you cart rider hackers are here postulating on what its like to play the PGA Tour. Nice.

A little testy today aren't we Phil?

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That's the point actually.  Most of us believe if Casey rides they should all have the option to ride, those that opt not to have that right and understand the potential disadvantage they have.  The PGA by only allowing Casey to ride in a cart has given him an advantage over his competition.

I think for most PGA players using a cart would be an advantage, but for Casey Martin it is a necessity if he is to play in the US Open.  I think the guy is an inspiration to others and the PGA did itself more damage than good by opposing Casey playing in PGA events using a cart.  It certainly won't change the ultimate goal of golf, which is to work your way around the course in fewer stokes than anyone else. Since Casey makes a living in the golf industry it is reasonable to permit him an accommodation to be able to play that isn't given to the able bodied.  I don't see this accommodation any different than that of requiring companies to put in ramps and elevators for disabled employees.  No where in the USGA "The Rules of Golf" did I find a requirement that one walk the golf course and this is the US Open (a USGA event) so it should be open to all that are accomplished enough golfers to qualify.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

You're not going to get many actual players to agree with you. There's more to walking around the course and the endurance it takes and so on than any of the "Yes" people seem to give credit. I taught a guy who got in a car accident, won a few events on some lower Tours, but had to stop because he couldn't walk six days a week even if he only played nine holes during the practice rounds. Simply couldn't do it and you cart rider hackers are here postulating on what its like to play the PGA Tour. Nice.

I don't think it's a matter of not giving credit to the endurance of walking. It's more a matter of what is the purpose of the competitive game, and people here are giving their opinion on that, whether they are 'cart hackers' or not. (Some of us aren't).

I suppose we could have filtered the responses to ask only the very few who have played tour events, but we didn't. The Supreme Court is not made up of tour pros either yet they weighed in on the issue & had the final say.

So if your point is 'we don't play the tour so we don't know', point taken. But that doesn't mean we forfeit our opinion on the issue.

[MSDOGS1976]

My beer belly gets in the way of my walking, so I use a cart. I certainly have no problem with Casey using one.

[Mr3Wiggle]

So what do we call the game if we're playing it while riding in a cart?  Since according to Chamblee, Nobilo, and a number of golf purists walking is an integral part of the game.  And if so should courses be rated/sloped for people who ride, since according to the experts it's an advantage to ride in a cart?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

So what do we call the game if we're playing it while riding in a cart?  Since according to Chamblee, Nobilo, and a number of golf purists walking is an integral part of the game.  And if so should courses be rated/sloped for people who ride, since according to the experts it's an advantage to ride in a cart?

And for, handicapping purposes, should the score card have a little checkbox for walking/carting? If I shoot an 88 (highly unlikely ) while carting one day and an 92 while walking the next should they be calculated differently? Personally I think Casey should be required to walk or USGA should make the cart optional for everyone in the event and even that is a cop out but, hey, nobody likes looking like a douche. Tough call, extremely unusual situation that, like IACAS pointed out, is unlikely to ever happen again - how the hell did someone this kind of disability ever get to be that good at golf?

At the end of the day I probably would have voted for letting Casey cart it (don't wanna look like a douche!) but figure that allowing everyone the option of a cart is less compromising to the spirit of the competition.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

And for, handicapping purposes, should the score card have a little checkbox for walking/carting? If I shoot an 88 (highly unlikely  ) while carting one day and an 92 while walking the next should they be calculated differently? Personally I think Casey should be required to walk or USGA should make the cart optional for everyone in the event and even that is a cop out but, hey, nobody likes looking like a douche. Tough call, extremely unusual situation that, like IACAS pointed out, is unlikely to ever happen again - how the hell did someone this kind of disability ever get to be that good at golf?

At the end of the day I probably would have voted for letting Casey cart it (don't wanna look like a douche!) but figure that allowing everyone the option of a cart is less compromising to the spirit of the competition.

I think you are on the right track with the handicap adjustments.  I would assume course raters would have to take walking length and hills into account.  Also how do we solve the fluctations in temperature, as it's obviously harder to walk on a really hot day.  I think we're going to need the math guys from MIT to weigh in on this one.

[TourSpoon]

I think you are on the right track with the handicap adjustments.  I would assume course raters would have to take walking length and hills into account.  Also how do we solve the fluctations in temperature, as it's obviously harder to walk on a really hot day.  I think we're going to need the math guys from MIT to weigh in on this one.

Would you give extra points for carrying your own bag?

[RollTide]

I'd love to hear someone that ends up finishing lower than Casey explain how they would have finished ahead of him had they not become fatigued due to walking. Can you imagine? That's laughable lol.