Should Pros Play by a Different Set of Rules?

[LovinItAll]

Don't most sports leagues use one ball for everyone? I'd start there. Often it's the same guys who say things like "the professionals play an entirely different game than we do" and "the great thing about golf is we all play the same game - from amateurs on a muni to the guys on the PGA Tour". Sure you do.

This was one of the points of the poll. For example, if you believe that anchored putters shouldn't be allowed on tour but are okay for amateurs, you're advocating a different set of rules. Not sure where you stand based on your comments - they seem to be diametrically opposed, but that may have been your point, We do play the same game, but obviously pros play it at a much different level. Should they have their own ruling body, with amateurs continuing to be governed by the USGA/R&A;? That was the question.

[TourSpoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Should they have their own ruling body, with amateurs continuing to be governed by the USGA/R&A;? That was the question.

But they already do to some extent because the PGA Tour has local rules that are put in to govern play that can and do change from week to week.

Here is an excerpt from Jack Nicklaus that addresses some of this.

Quote:

Q. Similar thought, there's been some chatter about whether there should be a set of rules for TOUR players and a set of rules for civilians. I guess there kind of is right now with the grooves deal. It sort of applies to them but not to all of them.

JACK NICKLAUS : It's not the question, there's a different set of rules. The ball just allows there to be a different game.

Q. Do you think that there should be a different set of rules, bifurcation comes up, maybe smaller club heads on the PGA TOUR, fewer clubs?

JACK NICKLAUS : It's just like you said, they have eliminated the square groove issue. It's only grandfathered in for a generation, what, 18 years or something like that, is that what it is? I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. How long does it take to wear a set of clubs down? I think I'm the only guy still playing with the same clubs I played with 18 years ago.

But I think that the USGA and the R&A; would like to have one set of rules. I think that's what the game should be played with, one set of rules. I think it's better. We have always had and I don't know what the right word is in the rule book, is it the appendix. That has local rules that are put in. We have always had extra rules.

Q. PGA TOUR could do whatever they want.

JACK NICKLAUS : They could do whatever they want as far as local rules. And you know, that's okay. They do it every week.

So they are not really playing by the same rules anyway. But to go a long way away, that the amateurs play with one set of clubs, and play with the others permanently, I don't think is the right way to do it.

As much as I would like to see the golf ball adjusted, I would hate to see them have two golf balls. I think it's right to play with one.

You know, it's a difficult question to answer, because we have a game that and you keep going back, and everybody always says when they play, was the right time to play, but the game is just a different game today. There's nothing wrong with the game today. It's just a different game than I played.

And when I played, if I would play with an amateur at his club, and we both played from the back tees, I might out hit him 15 or 20 yards. It wasn't a big deal. You play with him today, the guys out hitting 100 yards. It's not even close to a contest. They are playing with the same equipment. Something's different. And whether it's the golf ball or the club or a combination; the only issue that I have always had with this thing is that the TOUR is a showcase of the game, and the TOUR should be the example of how the game should be played for the average golfer. And when the average golfer cannot relate to the game that the TOUR guy is playing, how can you say it's the same game.

Now, people want to come out and watch it, because it's exciting because they can't do it. But what I always thought was the excitement was being able to come out and play this game that on any given day, if I were an amateur, I could go out and do what Tiger does or do what Phil does. They can't do that.

Q. Can't relate.

JACK NICKLAUS : Can't relate. And that's the issue that I have always had. And is the game today a great game? Absolutely it's a great game. It's just a different game. And so I don't want to try to put down the game today. I think the game is great. You've got more good, young players in the game today than we have ever had seen for a long, long time. I think the game is very healthy from a tournament standpoint. It's great.

But there's some reason why we are losing people in the game, too. Why are we losing people in the game? We've lost 23 percent of the women and 36 percent of the kids since 2006. You've heard these statistics before. And there's a reason why we are losing them.

I mean, the TOUR is the showcase. The TOUR has got to be the place that helps us correct that. The game, the people out there that are dropping out of the game are the people that are paying these guys to play. That's the public. So we don't want to be running the public out of the game. We want to keep the public in the game.

And the Play Golf Forward, playing different things to I've been fiddling around with a variety of things; I'm a little far out with that, but that's okay. It's an idea of trying to keep people in the game with the 12 holes, bigger holes, all that kind of stuff. We are not trying to change the game. The game is a great game.

But you get a lady who doesn't play very much and you get a 10 year old kid, they need some success to stay in the game. They need to have success. And so how do we get some success? How do we help them feel good about themselves and what they are doing. I think that's the thing that equipment has done is changed that a little bit.

What are the three biggest things we have? The game takes too long, the game is too hard and it's too expensive. Those are the three major things. I'm trying to talk Tim and I talked to him about a year ago and he sort of pooh poohed me about the 12 hole golf. And he came back to me at the Masters last year and he says, you know, we are going to do more with this 12 hole golf. I'm going to do something with it. Hasn't done anything yet, but he has it in his head. And he likes it for First Tee because they have two sixes, and makes a lot less time for First Tee.

I said, Tim, what would be the difference we have to legitimize, if you are going to have people play 12 hole golf, you have to play golf in 2 1/2 hours. Every other sport is played in less than three hours. If we can do that, why can't we play a tournament where we play six 12 hole rounds? You just play a round and a half a day. You score it differently is all. You wake up in the morning and you see where you've shot a 46 and a 23 and you shot 69 for the day as total number of strokes. It's just how you score it, legitimize it, to get people to think about the game in a different way.

I hope he'll do it. He doesn't have to change a darn thing he's doing. Am I answering what you're asking me? I mean, I can continue on this for 45 hours if you want, you know that. (Laughter).

Source: http://www.pgatour.com/2012/tournaments/r010/02/29/transcript-nicklaus/index.html

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

But they already do to some extent because the PGA Tour has local rules that are put in to govern play that can and do change from week to week.

Here is an excerpt from Jack Nicklaus that addresses some of this.

Source: http://www.pgatour.com/2012/tournaments/r010/02/29/transcript-nicklaus/index.html

I understand what you're saying, but 'local rules' are in effect for amateurs as well. I'm speaking more to the idea of people believing, as Feherty does, that the PGA Tour should be a ruling body and create an entirely different set of rules independant of the USGA/R&A.; Sure, most of the rules would be the same, but when the PGA Tour wants to implement a change to a global rule of golf, they wouldn't have to petition the USGA/R&A; (the logic goes) for a rule change.

Take the long putter, for example. The PGA Tour could make a rule that long putters are illegal in their competitions, and they could do it right now. They don't want to, though. They want a ruling from the USGA.

Doesn't mean that you can't play with whatever you want to right now, including nonconforming balls, but how many people who like to 'follow the rules' purchase nonconforming balls, drivers, etc.? Not many that I see. If the PGA Tour made long putters illegal and didn't bother waiting for the USGA, how do YOU think amateurs would feel? I'm sure many would keep their long sticks, while others would might give them up in an effort to continue playing the game 'like the pros', which is an entirely different debalte.

Again, I guess what I'm saying is that there many players who appreciate that the pros play by the same rulebook regarding equipment. Many probably don't care. Maybe that should have been the poll question (re:equipment instead of simply 'rules'). As far as I know, there are no local rules regarding equipment that the pros currently use that are different from amateurs.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I understand what you're saying, but 'local rules' are in effect for amateurs as well. I'm speaking more to the idea of people believing, as Feherty does, that the PGA Tour should be a ruling body and create an entirely different set of rules independant of the USGA/R&A.; Sure, most of the rules would be the same, but when the PGA Tour wants to implement a change to a global rule of golf, they wouldn't have to petition the USGA/R&A; (the logic goes) for a rule change.

Take the long putter, for example. The PGA Tour could make a rule that long putters are illegal in their competitions, and they could do it right now. They don't want to, though. They want a ruling from the USGA.

Doesn't mean that you can't play with whatever you want to right now, including nonconforming balls, but how many people who like to 'follow the rules' purchase nonconforming balls, drivers, etc.? Not many that I see. If the PGA Tour made long putters illegal and didn't bother waiting for the USGA, how do YOU think amateurs would feel? I'm sure many would keep their long sticks, while others would might give them up in an effort to continue playing the game 'like the pros', which is an entirely different debalte.

Again, I guess what I'm saying is that there many players who appreciate that the pros play by the same rulebook regarding equipment. Many probably don't care. Maybe that should have been the poll question (re:equipment instead of simply 'rules'). As far as I know, there are no local rules regarding equipment that the pros currently use that are different from amateurs.

I get what you are saying and I think this is interesting.  Specifically regarding the bolded part though, I would think that if the tour did have their own rules then you would run into problems in the majors, since they don't govern those.  It wouldn't be without precendent though because the USGA and R&A; used to have different rules for ball size, right?

In general though, having the same rules everywhere makes everything so simple.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

But they already do to some extent because the PGA Tour has local rules that are put in to govern play that can and do change from week to week.

Here is an excerpt from Jack Nicklaus that addresses some of this.

Source: http://www.pgatour.com/2012/tournaments/r010/02/29/transcript-nicklaus/index.html

I understand what you're saying, but 'local rules' are in effect for amateurs as well. I'm speaking more to the idea of people believing, as Feherty does, that the PGA Tour should be a ruling body and create an entirely different set of rules independant of the USGA/R&A.; Sure, most of the rules would be the same, but when the PGA Tour wants to implement a change to a global rule of golf, they wouldn't have to petition the USGA/R&A; (the logic goes) for a rule change.

Take the long putter, for example. The PGA Tour could make a rule that long putters are illegal in their competitions, and they could do it right now. They don't want to, though. They want a ruling from the USGA.

Doesn't mean that you can't play with whatever you want to right now, including nonconforming balls, but how many people who like to 'follow the rules' purchase nonconforming balls, drivers, etc.? Not many that I see. If the PGA Tour made long putters illegal and didn't bother waiting for the USGA, how do YOU think amateurs would feel? I'm sure many would keep their long sticks, while others would might give them up in an effort to continue playing the game 'like the pros', which is an entirely different debalte.

Again, I guess what I'm saying is that there many players who appreciate that the pros play by the same rulebook regarding equipment. Many probably don't care. Maybe that should have been the poll question (re:equipment instead of simply 'rules'). As far as I know, there are no local rules regarding equipment that the pros currently use that are different from amateurs.

ONE. BALL.

I'm legally allowed to use as many different conforming brands and models as I please.

[NuclearMike]

It's the same game and should be played by the same rules.  The fact that I don't care to play from tees that might give me a 520 yard par 4 or 260 yard par 3 like the pros play doesn't make the goal any different- get the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes.  Simple, right?

[Dave2512]

Given the the amount of rule bending I see on the course there's no need for two sets of rules. The hobbyist is pretty much their own RO. Some play it straight, many don't. What the pros do or don't and are bound by isn't going to change much for the gimme and mulligan crowd.

[ThominOH]

Yes.. Pro's should have a different set of rules..  Why do you ask?

With today's technology, golf is evolving into something it shouldn't be..  The main areas that bother me is are:  1) The use of a professional caddy such as Williams, Lacava or Fluff.. lol  A caddy is much more helpful to the pro, then most will comment on..  I can promise you this.. If Tiger for example has a Joe Smo caddy, he would of never have the record he has now.. We all know it.. Caddies should be there to carry the bag and clean stuff off.. NO INPUT should be allowed at all.. No yardage, No reading lines.. etc etc..   2) Equipment should of remained as it was for most of the century, this meaning woods remain as persimmon woods, NOT titanium for example..  I give credit to Baseball for not allowing anything but regulated wooden bats.. 3) Golf balls should of been limited as well..

Now what companies like Titleist sell and market to us hacks.. LOL  oh well.. Business is business.. However, the pro's should of been corralled into restrictive rules and requirements..

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by ThominOH

Yes.. Pro's should have a different set of rules..  Why do you ask?

With today's technology, golf is evolving into something it shouldn't be..  The main areas that bother me is are:  1) The use of a professional caddy such as Williams, Lacava or Fluff.. lol  A caddy is much more helpful to the pro, then most will comment on..  I can promise you this.. If Tiger for example has a Joe Smo caddy, he would of never have the record he has now.. We all know it.. Caddies should be there to carry the bag and clean stuff off.. NO INPUT should be allowed at all.. No yardage, No reading lines.. etc etc..   2) Equipment should of remained as it was for most of the century, this meaning woods remain as persimmon woods, NOT titanium for example..  I give credit to Baseball for not allowing anything but regulated wooden bats.. 3) Golf balls should of been limited as well..

..

On the first bolded point I disagree completely. Every sport has seen great leaps in tech, and golf should be no different.

on the second, how many times does it hgave to be said, they ARE LIMITED. Rules govern how far a ball can go already. The rules that limit golf balls and clubs are very concise, manufacturers cant just make whatever they want. It has to conform to competition rules.

[joekelly]

Sean_Miller, i draw your attention to this http://thesandtrap.com/t/56800/true-pros-cant-change-ball-compression-during-round

regarding use of conforming balls during a round of golf.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Sean_Miller, i draw your attention to this   http://thesandtrap.com/t/56800/true-pros-cant-change-ball-compression-during-round

regarding use of conforming balls during a round of golf.

Sorry, what's your point?

[Rudyprimo]

They should have different rules are far as equipment goes.  For that matter, I think some equipment should be banned entirely but too many amateurs rely on it already and it would be hard to change.  Long putters and hybrids should not be allowed for the pros.  It takes too much away from the game.  Putting, the yips, is something that has plagued golfers as long as golf has been played.  When golfers get older they can suffer from it.  Long putters solve that problem.  Equipment alone shouldn't make you a better golfer.  You shouldn't be able to buy a better game.  Hybrids take away one of the things that separated great golfers from the rest.  Being able to hit your long irons.  Tournaments have been won and lost because of this.  It takes extra dedication and practice to hit long irons.  Hybrids eliminate that.

That's two things I would like to see change.  It wouldn't matter to me if this was changed just for the pros or all golfers, but I don't think the equipment manufacturers would let that happen.  In fact, I think that's the only reason they are allowed in the pro's.  A lot of amateurs wouldn't play that equipment if it wasn't allowed in the pros.

The only piece of equipment that changed the game for a long, long time was the sand wedge.  Now in the last 20-25 years you have metal woods, long putters, hybrids, 460 cc drivers, exotic, tuned shafts, balls that fly farther and it's all in the name of money.  Way too much change too fast.  The game is easier for the pros because of it.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

The only piece of equipment that changed the game for a long, long time was the sand wedge.  Now in the last 20-25 years you have metal woods, long putters, hybrids, 460 cc drivers, exotic, tuned shafts, balls that fly farther and it's all in the name of money.  Way too much change too fast.  The game is easier for the pros because of it.

LOL. That is pretty funny. Easy for the pro's. Yes, i'd like to see most break 100 on the courses they play. These guys play in the hardest conditions of all, and its amazing ball striking ability that makes them so much better than us.

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

ONE. BALL.

I'm legally allowed to use as many different conforming brands and models as I please.

As noted in a different thread, Titleist claims a max 4-5 yard per ball distance throughout its line of golf ball offerings. When the PGA made the one-ball rule, there was a significant difference in distance between a wound balata ball and a two piece ball of solid construction. Here's a quote from another site from testing done in '09 with all brands of balls:

"Our process included robot testing at Golf Laboratories, an independent company in San Diego. Using a driver with 10.5 degrees of loft, the robot hit each ball at 96 miles per hour. We then had the robot hit every ball with a 56-degree wedge (half swing).

Driver: The balls had marginal differences in spin rate (within 400 revolutions per minute) and launch angle (within a degree), so the difference in total distance would be negligible. But less loft could increase those ranges. Also, at high swing speeds, low-compression (or softer) balls don't fly as far as high-compression (or firmer) balls because they lose energy by compressing more at impact."

And why almost everyone that doesn't scoop the ball will benefit from a softer cover (with more trips to the ATM):

" Wedge: Here balls differed. You could plot them along a slope from high launch/low spin to low launch/high spin. That slope mirrors increasing price and technology. Remember that spin matters to your short game to the extent that you can take advantage of it . Most balls with ionomer (Surlyn) covers spin less because they tend to slide up the clubface. But balls with urethane covers tend to stick to the face longer, thus imparting more spin. USGA testing has found that balls with urethane covers spin 60 percent more than ionomer balls in shots from the rough."

Source: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/golf-balls/2009-05/hotlistcriteria_golfballs?currentPage=2

I hear ya, though. I rarely see anyone switch balls for longer holes anymore, but I still see guys swap balls - illegally - once they reach the green.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

ONE. BALL.

I'm legally allowed to use as many different conforming brands and models as I please.

. . . I rarely see anyone switch balls for longer holes anymore, but I still see guys swap balls - illegally - once they reach the green.

Coincidentally there are sports where people switch balls to their advantage all the time, and yet I was thinking of them when I suggested (in another thread) that all players should use the same ball.

Football - QBs can request a new ball. Punters and place kickers do this as well.

Tennis - the person putting the ball into play (i.e. serving) can switch balls serve to serve or continue using the same one

Baseball - same as tennis (one of only a few sports where the defense has the ball)

[k-troop]

Everyone is using the same clubs, and that is fine.  Tour guys have their equipment more tweaked than we do, because they have the time and professional assistance to wade through the millions of shaft/weight/head/lie/loft combinations and find out what works best for them.

But the rules on how the game is played are different.  Most weekend golfers don't walk.  Most weekend golfers don't trek back to the tee when they can't find their drive.  Weekend golfers use GPS and range finders.  Pro golfers have hundreds of spotters to help them find their errant tee shots.

So long as the rules are the same for everyone in the same event, then that should be sufficient.  If the Tour adopts a certain rule on how to play the game (i.e. walking is mandatory) or use of equipment (i.e. allowing or banning range finders or long putters), then the weekend golfer can choose to play by the same rules as Pros if they want to.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I understand what you're saying, but 'local rules' are in effect for amateurs as well. I'm speaking more to the idea of people believing, as Feherty does, that the PGA Tour should be a ruling body and create an entirely different set of rules independant of the USGA/R&A.; Sure, most of the rules would be the same, but when the PGA Tour wants to implement a change to a global rule of golf, they wouldn't have to petition the USGA/R&A; (the logic goes) for a rule change.

Take the long putter, for example. The PGA Tour could make a rule that long putters are illegal in their competitions, and they could do it right now. They don't want to, though. They want a ruling from the USGA.

Doesn't mean that you can't play with whatever you want to right now, including nonconforming balls, but how many people who like to 'follow the rules' purchase nonconforming balls, drivers, etc.? Not many that I see. If the PGA Tour made long putters illegal and didn't bother waiting for the USGA, how do YOU think amateurs would feel? I'm sure many would keep their long sticks, while others would might give them up in an effort to continue playing the game 'like the pros', which is an entirely different debalte.

Again, I guess what I'm saying is that there many players who appreciate that the pros play by the same rulebook regarding equipment. Many probably don't care. Maybe that should have been the poll question (re:equipment instead of simply 'rules'). As far as I know, there are no local rules regarding equipment that the pros currently use that are different from amateurs.

You make a good point about the equipment, and that could be handled with a local rule. They already have several local rules that are in place that discuss the one ball, carts not allowed (unless you are on the Champions Tour, certain stages of Q school, so they technically play by different rules as discussed ad nauseum), dress code (different for LPGA) and the various rules they may tack on for any given week (remember to read your local sheet well to avoid penalties). I don't know if the Tour doesn't want to be the bad guy to the players, get sued by manufacturers (ie Karsten), or if they just want a united front. Does anyone know for sure?

[newtogolf]

According to Brian Katreks show on XM, Brian has received word from his sources that the R&A; have formulated a rule that's in writing that bans anchoring of the club.  They are holding off on the announcement to ensure the USGA is in agreement.  The rule is scheduled to take effect in 2016 and will only apply to pro's.  If the USGA goes forward in this manner, this will be the beginning of two separate sets of rules for the pro's and non-pro's.