Is the Golf Equipment Business one big scam?

[sportsnut]

I don't know that I would believe this is the same equipment we can buy, I would have to see complete specs on the clubhead, shaft, ball,etc. I really cannot see that this is the same off the shelf items we can buy at our local golf store and that the equipment is not hand made to their specs and strong suit, especially with all the money on the line for the players and sponsors. Its in my opinion, like believing that race cars are off the dealerships floor and we can walk right in and buy it, looking like the real mc coy dont make it the same. Just consider me like someone from Missouri, the show me state, but what the heck its my opinion and I could be wrong but someone is going to have to show me I'm wrong not just tell me..

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sportsnut

I don't know that I would believe this is the same equipment we can buy, I would have to see complete specs on the clubhead, shaft, ball,etc. I really cannot see that this is the same off the shelf items we can buy at our local golf store and that the equipment is not hand made to their specs and strong suit, especially with all the money on the line for the players and sponsors. Its in my opinion, like believing that race cars are off the dealerships floor and we can walk right in and buy it, looking like the real mc coy dont make it the same. Just consider me like someone from Missouri, the show me state, but what the heck its my opinion and I could be wrong but someone is going to have to show me I'm wrong not just tell me..

And you are certainly entitled to this opinion. :)  But did you check out the link I gave you?  That does show pictures of a lot of their clubs.  Obviously not most shafts, but they will tell you which shafts they use.  It's also pretty easy to see when you watch a tournament.  KBS, Project X, Fubuki with all their flowers or whatever ... a lot of the shafts are very easy to make out in HD.

And I'd like to meet the person who thinks this:

looks the same as this:

[sportsnut]

You completely miss my point, then why made them look even remotely like a production car, for the fans thats why, along with owners pride and loyalty and bragging rights and marketing, to name just a few reasons. first of all whether they look the same or not it does not make them the same, a little paint and lettering goes a long way. Ironically if I remember correctly there was a small period in time when the car on the track had to have been produced in a limited amount, might have been can am racers but it was the reason for some real serious muscle cars to be out prowling your local streets that you could buy but thats before emissions. anyway if you and I can get a fitting why do you find it so hard to imagine, that the pros clubs are altered in a very serious way and that their equipment quite likely is handmade for them. Take a look at the distances they hit their golfballs with little to no drift, now they may be professionals that log all kinds of time on their clubs, but they are human and if you believe they could walk into their local golf shop and pull a club off the shelf that their sponsor manufactured with the same shaft and hit it the same then that is surely your belief not mine.

[notsohard]

Originally Posted by k-troop

I think it's ridiculous, but it's win-win.  For fools who want to buy new clubs every year, they have options.  For the rest of us, any time you're in the market for a newer club, you can always find something that's a year or so old (and still well within the range of "new tech") for a reasonable price.  What's really the travesty is how expensive clubs have gotten.  Drivers now cost more than 3x what they did 15 years ago, and putters have more than doubled in the last 6-8 years.  But, again, these $400-500 drivers will be $200 in a year.

eg:...someone has to pay for Rory $10-20mill a year to use nike .....the consumer who believes that nike clubs will lower their handicap and make them swing like a pro/scratch golfer, instead of getting golf lessons....marketing guys are educated in the pysche of man, they know how to put an object in front of him and make him believe its for him, its called brilliant advertising.

[newtogolf]

I think part of the myth is that the Aldila RIP,  (or any other shaft) that comes standard on a driver is the same as the after market Aldila RIP (or any other shaft).  I believe it's been pretty much proven that the shafts pre-installed on drivers have different characteristics from their after market versions.

Pro's are most likely not using the pre-installed shafts but instead swap them out with after market shafts.  I've also read where pro's are using clubs that have shafts from one manufacturer painted to appear the same as a different manufacturer.  Pro's irons might be close to the same as what you can buy off the shelf but I believe their woods are very different from the stock versions we see in Golfsmith or Dicks.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This is a myth.  For the most part, the clubs the pros play are all available to us.  Yes, some use "prototypes" that may not yet, or ever, be available, but you can see that a guy like Nick Watney, for example (last year), is playing AP2's.  The exact same ones we can buy if we want.  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag

I agree, though, that they can be a bit deceptive.  They know that people want to "be like the pros" but they also want to sell their latest stuff.  I noticed this weekend during the myriad of showings of last years TOC that Steve Stricker was playing with a 910D driver based on the big bright shiny head cover.  However, if you paid close attention after the head cover came off, his driver wasn't adjustable ... which means it wasn't a 910, it was probably a 2 year old 909 (or older) model.  Well, Titleist certainly doesn't want to advertise that a 2 or 4 year old driver is the preference of somebody who has whatever he wants at his disposal, because that would hurt marketing.  We're not going to tell you he's playing a 910, because that would be a lie, but we're going to try and hide the fact that he's not.

Same thing happened when the 913 came out too ... some starting playing with it but ALL started using the headcover.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sportsnut

You completely miss my point,

Ah, my very favorite phrase in all of the forums since I've been here (said in jest).  I assure you that I did not "miss your point," but rather, I just don't agree with you.  It's not a comparison.  We're arguing whether or not the clubs that pros use (which you'll agree, look exactly like the ones on the shelf) are the same as the ones we can buy.  Fine.  But to say that it's similar to how Nascar cars look like production cars because they have the Chevy logo and say "Impala" on the front is silly.  Nobody with half a brain goes into a car dealership thinking they're walking out of there with a car that gets 2 miles a gallon and goes 220 miles per hour.

Quote:

anyway if you and I can get a fitting why do you find it so hard to imagine, that the pros clubs are altered in a very serious way and that their equipment quite likely is handmade for them.

I don't find that hard to imagine at all.  I've seen pictures of some pros wedges and those guys lead tape the crap out of those things.  They don't look anything like a normal club ... but they still are normal clubs.  I'm certainly not suggesting that pros buy their clubs "off the shelf."  I don't even do that.  I recently got fitted and my clubs are longer than off-the-shelf, more upright than off-the-shelf, and have different than standard shafts.

I'm just saying that there isn't top secret equipment out there that we can't get our hands on.  I believe anything, except for the aforementioned "prototype" clubs, that the pros use is available to us.  Look at it from a manufacturer's standpoint.  They spend so much energy trying to get us to play clubs that the pros play, why wouldn't they make them available to us?

Originally Posted by sportsnut

but they are human and if you believe they could walk into their local golf shop and pull a club off the shelf that their sponsor manufactured with the same shaft and hit it the same then that is surely your belief not mine.

Again, I don't disagree with this.  They all have clubs fine tuned to fit them (just like I do :)) but those clubs are, for the most part, normal equipment that is available to anybody.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think part of the myth is that the Aldila RIP,  (or any other shaft) that comes standard on a driver is the same as the after market Aldila RIP (or any other shaft).  I believe it's been pretty much proven that the shafts pre-installed on drivers have different characteristics from their after market versions.

Not so sure about that.  I'm pretty sure I've read on here that the idea that the $400 after market is so much better and different than the "made for" original is also a myth.  I know a lot on here strongly believe so, I just think that is not the case.  But this is, admittedly, hearsay. (Is the written equivalent of hearsay "read-write?" ;))

I don't know one way or the other, just vaguely remember being witness to similar discussions on here in the past. :)

[Bullitt5339]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Not so sure about that.  I'm pretty sure I've read on here that the idea that the $400 after market is so much better and different than the "made for" original is also a myth.  I know a lot on here strongly believe so, I just think that is not the case.  But this is, admittedly, hearsay. (Is the written equivalent of hearsay "read-write?" ;))

I don't know one way or the other, just vaguely remember being witness to similar discussions on here in the past. :)

The only input I have on this is that I got to watch a club builder intentionally crush a stock R11 Blur and an aftermarket Blur in a vice, and the stock one was obviously thinner material and crushed and splintered much easier than the aftermarket one.  How that translates into playability, I have no idea, but the construction of the aftermarket shaft was obviously better than the stock R11 Blur.

[sportsnut]

just one favor to ask, let me know when you are in the market for a bridge, I happen to have several available for choosing, I'll even paint it to look like your favorite club.........................

[Dr.Golf]

I have worked at a golf retail business for about two years (having left recently being it was my second job) and have put hundreds of golfers through swing simulators to compare distances, flight, etc, against their current drivers. I'll say this as simply as I can........NOT ONE TIME did the golfer pick up any additional yards. We used many OEM brands, newest and latest but NEVER did ONE golfer express to me nor did the results on the monitor show ANY DIFFERENCES! What did change was the feel and flight of the ball given the changes made to the driver clubhead (settings). Any claim by the companies for extra yardage was never evident in any test I performed. I would ALWAYS wait a year maybe year and a half to pick up a so called OLD driver at a huge reduction in price.....plus my discount. Ball flight corrections and head feel were the only two points that were ever noticed. Find the driver that gives you the desired ball flight with the correct shaft for your swing speed, etc and stick with it. You WILL NOT gain any yards with any other driver out there. Not that I've experienced anyway and I've seen them all right up to the latest offerings (2013). Good luck

doc

[carrx]

Ripped from the homepage of this site:

"With the introduction of the VR_S Covert series, Nike Golf has brought cavity-back technology to drivers, fairways and hybrids. This seemingly simple engineering concept completely changes the way woods and hybrids perform on both professional and amateur levels. "

Really?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

The only input I have on this is that I got to watch a club builder intentionally crush a stock R11 Blur and an aftermarket Blur in a vice, and the stock one was obviously thinner material and crushed and splintered much easier than the aftermarket one.  How that translates into playability, I have no idea, but the construction of the aftermarket shaft was obviously better than the stock R11 Blur.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I just googled "made for shafts" and the first link was to a similar discussion on some "other" site similar to this one.  Here's an excerpt from a post that got a lot of agreement:

The bottom line is this - OEM's would love the greatest number of potential customers to buy their club. This is why they install a softer "watered down" variant of a big name shaft. Basically, it's because the shaft will fit a wider spectrum of golfers, rather than the aftermarket shaft which will fit a smaller percentage of golfers. If you take the classic example of the "made for Diamana Blueboard" versus the "real deal" variant, the latter will fit a smaller number of golfers because it is firmer, heavier and ultimately more expensive. It will fit a potential 10% of the golfing population as opposed to the 25% the 'made for' shaft will fit.

So, sounds like there is certainly a difference, but its not as simple as calling the pricey one better, and the made-for one worse.  But to bring this around to the topic at hand ... it can definitely fall into the category of shady advertising.  There are two different products, but both with the same name?  A little shady.  Scam?  Not quite, but definitely misleading.

[Fromthecoast]

For instance, what is the difference between the Callaway Diablo Edge and the Razr X. They look different but apparently perform very similar and have very close to identical MPF scores. Makes me wonder if there is any difference in the Razr X HL besides looks.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Sounds reasonable to me.  I just googled "made for shafts" and the first link was to a similar discussion on some "other"  site similar to this one.  Here's an excerpt from a post that got a lot of agreement:

The bottom line is this - OEM's would love the greatest number of potential customers to buy their club. This is why they install a softer "watered down" variant of a big name shaft. Basically, it's because the shaft will fit a wider spectrum of golfers, rather than the aftermarket shaft which will fit a smaller percentage of golfers. If you take the classic example of the "made for Diamana Blueboard" versus the "real deal" variant, the latter will fit a smaller number of golfers because it is firmer, heavier and ultimately more expensive. It will fit a potential 10% of the golfing population as opposed to the 25% the 'made for' shaft will fit.

The gap from tour equipment and off the rack stuff was narrowed within the last few years.  TaylorMade use to have B and C models now they just use the same heads you can find in stores.  What's the difference is just the tour stuff has a higher quality tolerance.  If you buy off the rack stuff swing weights, lie angles can be off.  Not going to happen on tour, they measure the heads, put in quality shafts and check the lie and loft.  Sometimes they even do some grinding to the sole, but even that doesn't happen as much as it use to.

That's why I've always liked the way PING does things, I can get the swing weights to match up through the set and the loft and lies are dead on.  But if you custom order clubs from Titleist, TaylorMade, Mizuno or Callaway you can certainly request a certain swing weight or get a swing weight machine and some lead tape.

With the shafts, of course OEM's are going to put in different shafts, they cost less.  And like GD said, it fits a wider spectrum of players.  The problem with stock stuff, like with the irons is the inconsistency from shaft to shaft.  That's why club fitters have a procedure called pureing or spining .  Anyone can get a driver as good as Dustin Johnson's, it's just going to cost you $700-800 dollars and that doesn't include the Trackman fitting lol

Like GD said, when Dufner is looking down at his AP2 it's looks the same as yours.  It's like that with virtually every company now.

[turtleback]

The brutal truth is that it is the Indian that counts, far more that subtle differences in the bow and arrow.

[newtogolf]

It may not be obvious to every golfer but I think most will agree the after market shaft is better than the one installed on mass produced drivers.  When you buy a shaft you want it's characteristics to be what's specified in terms of weight, flex, kick point and torque.  If the OEM shafts installed on drivers have looser tolerances then results can vary.  I've read numerous reviews where bundled driver shafts didn't perform close to their after market versions.  Will an after market shaft improve my score as a 20 handicap, not likely, which is why I don't spend $400 for an after market shaft.

I know some people justify the price of a driver ($400) because they believe the installed shaft is the same as the aftermarket version they see selling for $400+ online and in golf stores and decide that the new driver is a better value and investment than buying a new after market shaft for their current driver.  In my mind that's not marketing, that's mis-representation.  They should append an "SE" or "L" on the bundled shafts to indicate there are differences between them and what you'd buy as a stand-alone shaft.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So, sounds like there is certainly a difference, but its not as simple as calling the pricey one better, and the made-for one worse.  But to bring this around to the topic at hand ... it can definitely fall into the category of shady advertising.  There are two different products, but both with the same name?  A little shady.  Scam?  Not quite, but definitely misleading.

[newtogolf]

How they achieve the swing weight is important to.  I've read that Titleist will install weights in the shaft to compensate for the weight variances of the forged heads in their irons.  If I'm spending $1000+ on irons, I would expect they could produce heads with minimal weight variances so weights didn't need to be inserted.

My understanding is that Miura has very strict tolerances on weight of their club heads so inserted shaft weights are not required.  If that is true, that in itself could justify the higher cost of their irons.

Originally Posted by mvmac

The gap from tour equipment and off the rack stuff was narrowed within the last few years.  TaylorMade use to have B and C models now they just use the same heads you can find in stores.  What's the difference is just the tour stuff has a higher quality tolerance.  If you buy off the rack stuff swing weights, lie angles can be off.  Not going to happen on tour, they measure the heads, put in quality shafts and check the lie and loft.  Sometimes they even do some grinding to the sole, but even that doesn't happen as much as it use to.

That's why I've always liked the way PING does things, I can get the swing weights to match up through the set and the loft and lies are dead on.  But if you custom order clubs from Titleist, TaylorMade, Mizuno or Callaway you can certainly request a certain swing weight or get a swing weight machine and some lead tape.

With the shafts, of course OEM's are going to put in different shafts, they cost less.  And like GD said, it fits a wider spectrum of players.  The problem with stock stuff, like with the irons is the inconsistency from shaft to shaft.  That's why club fitters have a procedure called pureing or spining.  Anyone can get a driver as good as Dustin Johnson's, it's just going to cost you $700-800 dollars and that doesn't include the Trackman fitting lol

Like GD said, when Dufner is looking down at his AP2 it's looks the same as yours.  It's like that with virtually every company now.

[glock35ipsc]

For certain, the shafts aren't always what they seem.  But most of the heads are the same that is available to us (at some point down the line), but the biggest difference is the specs are measured down to a gnats ass to be what that players wants.  Bubba's driver head says 8.5°, but really measures 7.5°.  At one point, Tigers driver head said 8.5°, but actually measured 11.25°.

Look closely at these shafts....  on the far right is a stock Nunchuk shaft.  Far left is a Nunchuk dressed up to look like a stock RBZ shaft.  The middle one is a Nunchuk dressed in R11 clothing.

When he won the Greenbrier Classic, Ted Potter Jr. used one in his 3 wood, and was dressed up like an Aldila VooDoo 80x shaft.