Who can defend Sergio?

[Stretch]

[MacBooky]

Sergio whines, Tiger's an arrogant dick .... still, I like watching them both

Also, I'd think that if Tiger where Spanish and Sergio was American, this discussion would have looked rather different

[RonTheSavage]

Sergio reminds me of Jay Cutler..............CRAZY talent but when they lose it's always something/someone elses fault. I cant root for a guy like that.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by MacBooky

Sergio whines, Tiger's an arrogant dick .... still, I like watching them both

Also, I'd think that if Tiger where Spanish and Sergio was American, this discussion would have looked rather different

If you're implying we Americans are piling in Sergio because he's Spanish, that's quite doubtful. Dick-y behavior knows no country. He's a douche in any language.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by MacBooky

Sergio whines, Tiger's an arrogant dick .... still, I like watching them both

Also, I'd think that if Tiger where Spanish and Sergio was American, this discussion would have looked rather different

Originally Posted by zipazoid

If you're implying we Americans are piling in Sergio because he's Spanish, that's quite doubtful. Dick-y behavior knows no country. He's a douche in any language.

FWIW, I'm Canadian and share the same general sentiments on Garcia as others in this thread. Also should note that I've become a bit of a Poulter fan BECAUSE he is such an American slayer in matchplay! Nothing against my American brothers but I always root for the Euros (but not Sergio ) in International play so MacBooky's insinuation certainly doesn't hold in my case.

[Chas]

And Chas, Multi-Quote please. We've asked before.

I was making a general remark about the Sergio-haters in this thread - no need to multiquote them. Pointless. No, the responsibility is on you guys to demonstrate that Sergio "sabotages" himself. How many pro tour events has he won? The irony of what happened on the 17th escapes many here apparently. He's a talented risk-taker, more like Phil than most other players, without his short game but usually better off the tee.

[bubble]

I found sergio pretty solid at this players. even thought I dont like his attitude much (at all) I see improuvement and scores that go with it;

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Chas

I was making a general remark about the Sergio-haters in this thread - no need to multiquote them. Pointless.

No, the responsibility is on you guys to demonstrate that Sergio "sabotages" himself. How many pro tour events has he won? The irony of what happened on the 17th escapes many here apparently. He's a talented risk-taker, more like Phil than most other players, without his short game but usually better off the tee.

He's won 4 more (8 total) on the PGA Tour in his entire career than Tiger has won just this year.  Phil is known to make poor decisions and lack judgment in his shot selection at times.  Sergio is known to collapse under pressure and self destruct, he's nothing like Phil.  Plus Phil has won a few majors and 41 tournaments on Tour.

[Chas]

Sergio has also won 10 times on the European tour and 3 times on the Asian tour. The PGA tour isn't the universe of golf, even though some in this forum seem to think it is. Comparing PGA tour wins for Garcia vs Michelson was hardly the point, surely you understand that.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MacBooky

Sergio whines, Tiger's an arrogant dick .... still, I like watching them both

Also, I'd think that if Tiger where Spanish and Sergio was American, this discussion would have looked rather different

Hmm, I'm American, I can't stand Sergio, yet my favorite tennis player is Rafael Nadal and in soccer I always root for the Spanish National Team in the World Cup and the European Cup.  Go figure.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by Chas

Sergio has also won 10 times on the European tour and 3 times on the Asian tour. The PGA tour isn't the universe of golf, even though some in this forum seem to think it is. Comparing PGA tour wins for Garcia vs Michelson was hardly the point, surely you understand that.

Correct.  But it is the only perspective many of us can use because we are subject to American coverage.  Sergio is very talented and takes risks.  But in this case, it was an unnecessary risk considering the situation.  He was playing well.  I think he would have had a 50% chance in the playoff the way Tiger was driving it.  But he chose to pull out the saber at the wrong time, which cost him the tournament.  And he whined publicly the day before.  This doesn't warm you to the audience.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Chas

Sergio has also won 10 times on the European tour and 3 times on the Asian tour. The PGA tour isn't the universe of golf, even though some in this forum seem to think it is. Comparing PGA tour wins for Garcia vs Michelson was hardly the point, surely you understand that.

True, but it is the best tour with the deepest, most talented fields.

If that sounds like a slap to the Euro or Asian tour, well, yeah. It is. The best Euro Tour player would do very well on the PGA Tour, but no way do they have the depth of the PGA Tour. I would liken it to the major leagues versus AAA Minor league baseball.

At any rate, fine, your point is well taken. Sergio's record is 8 PGA Tour wins, 10 Euro Tour wins & 3 Asian Tour wins. Not HOF credentials.

[Chas]

I'm just trying to provide some balance to this thread, in which some posters seem to have gone off the rails. I know, it's an Internet form, what should you expect ..... Sergio is the only guy I've seen hold the green on the 13th at Torrey Pines (long par 5, massive false front, well bunkered) from the right fairway bunker on his second stroke, with an iron. A shot I would hardly believe if I hadn't been standing there watching closely. When you're playing as well as that, it's easy to see how overconfidence can set it. Sergio had won the 2008 Players on the 17th with a birdie and had birdied it twice this year. He was playing to WIN on a hole with an absurdly tough pin placement, which is more than many of the grinders out there would have done. They haven't got the you-know-what's .... For someone to accuse such a golfer of self sabotage isn't just ridiculous, it's downright idiotic - IMHO of course. :>) I hate to remind you guys but we didn't do so well at the last Ryder Cup now did we. There are some pretty decent players over the pond.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Chas

For someone to accuse such a golfer of self sabotage isn't just ridiculous, it's idiotic - IMHO. :>)

Keep in mind that nobody is saying that Sergio consciously says to himself, "I don't really want to win this tournament so I'm going to dunk it in the water here."  That would be idiotic.  Self-sabotage is more of a psychological, and perhaps even subconscious, thing.  I just googled it and found this: http://www.itftennis.com/media/127458/127458.pdf

Look at the 4 symptoms at the bottom, specifically the last 2 (because, honestly, I have no idea what Sergio's work ethic is like) and REALLY specifically the last one.  Does that sound like anybody we know????

[Chas]

Respectfully, spare us the pop psych. What makes you think you can see into the dark inner recesses of his mind? It's perfectly obvious to those with eyes willing to see: he took a big risk - you might say an unreasonable one but then again you might not if his object is WINNING THE PLAYERS FOR A SECOND TIME - and he dunked the ball. I say kudos to the guy for that shot, but not for Tiger-club-pull-gate. He needs to get over stuff like that, even when surrounded by buffoons like some of Tiger's fans. Tiger's earlier bath is harder to understand, given that he was grinding it out beautifully. He must have been more shocked than anyone to have hooked that sucker into the drink, including his mother who surely enjoyed his remarks about her and Mother's Day afterwards.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Chas

Respectfully, spare us the pop psych. What makes you think you can see into the dark inner recesses of his mind?

It's perfectly obvious to those with eyes willing to see: he took a big risk - you might say an unreasonable one but then again you might not if his object is WINNING THE PLAYERS FOR A SECOND TIME - and he dunked the ball. I say kudos to the guy for that shot, but not for Tiger-club-pull-gate. He needs to get over stuff like that, even when surrounded by buffoons like some of Tiger's fans.

Tiger's earlier bath is harder to understand, given that he was grinding it out beautifully. He must have been more shocked than anyone to have hooked that sucker into the drink, including his mother who surely enjoyed his remarks about her and Mother's Day afterwards.

I can't, and wasn't suggesting otherwise.  The point of that whole concept, though, I believe, is that neither can he.  And I don't totally disagree with you either.  It was a risk.  And I am fully aware of the hypocrisy of the Monday morning quarterbacking of the whole thing as well.  Meaning that if he had pulled that shot off, people would be making him out to be a hero with guts.  Very few people would be harping on his "bad decision" on 17 if he put it close, birdied, and won.  In fact, they'd be praising the hell out of it, yet, it would still have been the exact same decision he made.  I am fully aware of that.

But I think the article (and I have no idea who wrote that or how credible it is, but its what popped out to me on my search :)) basically shows that the idea of self sabotage is a much bigger picture thing than simply "I'm gonna eff up here at the end so I don't have to win."  It's about preparation, or lack thereof, and it's about attitude and confidence.

P.S.:  Hey, aren;t you from San Diego??  Come join us in the Socal Golfers Group in time for our "tournament" on June 23rd!!!

[Chas]

Well I can agree that self-sabotage can happen, the mind is a complex and mysterious thing, but I don't see the evidence for it in that particular case (the 17th on Sunday). As I said, there is good evidence for the opposite, I.e rational risk-taking in an ultra-high reward situation. For Sergio to have bested Tiger in that tournament, which was a real possibility in his mind, was the sort of inducement that the likes of you and I can only imagine. But I do get your hypothesis and of course it is possible. And of course he wouldn't know - true for everybody in theory. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll Google SoCal Golfers Group and play in the tournament - it will be my first! I played The Vineyard in Escondido yesterday and read something about it there.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Chas

Respectfully, spare us the pop psych. What makes you think you can see into the dark inner recesses of his mind?

It's perfectly obvious to those with eyes willing to see: he took a big risk - you might say an unreasonable one but then again you might not if his object is WINNING THE PLAYERS FOR A SECOND TIME - and he dunked the ball. I say kudos to the guy for that shot, but not for Tiger-club-pull-gate. He needs to get over stuff like that, even when surrounded by buffoons like some of Tiger's fans.

Tiger's earlier bath is harder to understand, given that he was grinding it out beautifully. He must have been more shocked than anyone to have hooked that sucker into the drink, including his mother who surely enjoyed his remarks about her and Mother's Day afterwards.

He had numerous opportunities to take chances to close the gap or take the lead.  Why wait until 17 to take a chance on making a shot that no one (at the time) had successfully executed?

Anyone that understands risk analysis knows the risk there far outweighed the reward as the pin location required an almost perfect shot to land it to the right of the pin.  If he did land it to the right his best case was a birdie putt, worst case, he lands in the water and is putting for bogey or worse.

The 2nd shot in the water was just further proof of his self destruction in that he had zero chance at that point of winning (he had seen Tiger hit a perfect drive on the Jumbo Tron) and was playing for 2nd or 3rd, instead he finished T8.   Then on 18, putting it in the water was just him waving the white flag.

Tiger hit a bad shot, what's so hard to understand.