What Constitutes Finding Your Ball

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

A) absolutely. B) sure ... If you want to be a dick. :)

None of us bothered to look for it and let him do what he wanted, which was fine by me.  I didn't care to trudge through all that crap to look for someone else's ball.

Now that I have heard the correct answer I wonder if I would look for a competitor's ball if we were on the last hole of a tournament and we were neck and neck for 1st place.  I probably would do the same thing as I did before, but now that I know what I could do I guess it all depends on how cool the competitor is.  Probably will never happen again though.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

A) absolutely. B) sure ... If you want to be a dick. :)

Or if you want to protect the field, as you are supposed to.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

B) Can I go look for it and if I find it make him follow proper rules?

B) If you find it he must play by the proper ruiles

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Or if you want to protect the field, as you are supposed to.

As there is no obligation on you under the rules to search and as the player is entitled not to search and not breaching a rule, then that is not protecting the field.

[Ernest Jones]

As there is no obligation on you under the rules to search and as the player is entitled not to search and not breaching a rule, then that is not protecting the field.

But it is being a dick.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

But it is being a dick.

Hardly. Especially if you find it somewhat casually.

There aren't many situations, though, where lying 3 somewhere is going to be better than lying 1 somewhere else. It'd have to be a place from which you can't even reasonably play OR take unplayable relief within two clublengths or on a line away from the hole and have a shot.

The Big Break episode was one of those (he hit his 5-wood to a few feet or something for a tap-in par, IIRC).

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

A) absolutely. B) sure ... If you want to be a dick. :)

Or if you want to protect the field, as you are supposed to.

That doesn't constitute protecting the field.  Protecting the field is calling an infraction if you see one, not doing a ball search when your fellow competitor doesn't want to bother.  He is taking the penalty, so the protection issue is moot.

[Ernest Jones]

Hardly. Especially if you find it somewhat casually.

We weren't talking about casually. We were talking about your playing partner saying,"don't bother looking for that, I'll play my provisional" and you deciding to spend 5 minutes looking for his ball anyway. That is most certainly being a dick. You moved the goal posts on that one but I will agree if you were to just stumble upon it "casually" and then say, "hey, it's right here" then that would not constitute being a dick. There is a HUGE difference between those two scenarios.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

None of us bothered to look for it and let him do what he wanted, which was fine by me.  I didn't care to trudge through all that crap to look for someone else's ball.

Now that I have heard the correct answer I wonder if I would look for a competitor's ball if we were on the last hole of a tournament and we were neck and neck for 1st place.  I probably would do the same thing as I did before, but now that I know what I could do I guess it all depends on how cool the competitor is.  Probably will never happen again though.

Nope.  I know you well enough to know that you are a good sport and wouldn't do something like that.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

We weren't talking about casually. We were talking about your playing partner saying,"don't bother looking for that, I'll play my provisional" and you deciding to spend 5 minutes looking for his ball anyway. That is most certainly being a dick.

You moved the goal posts on that one but I will agree if you were to just stumble upon it "casually" and then say, "hey, it's right here" then that would not constitute being a dick. There is a HUGE difference between those two scenarios.

Exactly.  I would equate it with sneezing or yelling "noonan" while somebody was trying to putt.  (with that caveat that those actions are technically legal, which I think they are)  It's gamesmanship, or "bush league" or whatever you want to call it, and in my book, it's very un-kosher.  A-rod yelling "i got it" to the third baseman as he's running by him while he's trying to field a pop-up.  Not against the rules ... but don't be surprised when you are trying to pry a baseball out of your ear several minutes later.

And, as Erik pointed out, it's not even necessarily advantageous to do it, which makes it even more nonsensical.  The perfect analogy is the new trend in NFL football coach dickishness ... calling timeout to ice the kicker as the kick is being put in the air.  You think you're being clever, but just as many times as he made that kick, he's missed that kick.  So, not only are you being a dick to him, you're being a dick to your own team.

For a sport that is all about integrity and honor and all that good stuff, it's funny that anybody would be for anything of this nature.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

We weren't talking about casually. We were talking about your playing partner saying,"don't bother looking for that, I'll play my provisional" and you deciding to spend 5 minutes looking for his ball anyway. That is most certainly being a dick.

I don't know. You still hit it there.

I wouldn't do it, but I think "dick" is about an order of magnitude too strong.

Seve would have looked for someone's golf ball. :)

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't know. You still hit it there.

I wouldn't do it, but I think "dick" is about an order of magnitude too strong.

Seve would have looked for someone's golf ball. :)

Should the be the new motto for golf, "What would Seve do", i am sure there would be a lot of crazy ass shots being attempted by people who shouldn't be attempting them, 3-iron from a green side bunker anyone :p

For me, i wouldn't look for it.

I remember Phil asked people not to look for his ball, since he hit a provisional on the fact that it was a lost ball. Then some average joe fan found it, now he's screwed because he has to go back and hit a shot from the tee box because its unplayable, with no options available to drop for him were the ball was at. So he then proceeds, to hit is tee shot in the junk again.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't know. You still hit it there.

I wouldn't do it, but I think "dick" is about an order of magnitude too strong.

Seve would have looked for someone's golf ball. :)

Should the be the new motto for golf, "What would Seve do", i am sure there would be a lot of crazy ass shots being attempted by people who shouldn't be attempting them, 3-iron from a green side bunker anyone :p

For me, i wouldn't look for it.

I remember Phil asked people not to look for his ball, since he hit a provisional on the fact that it was a lost ball. Then some average joe fan found it, now he's screwed because he has to go back and hit a shot from the tee box because its unplayable, with no options available to drop for him were the ball was at. So he then proceeds, to hit is tee shot in the junk again.

Not quite right.  It wasn't a fan, because his ball was down in the baranca where no fans are allowed.  It had to be a marshal or forecaddie who was looking for his 15 seconds of fame.  In accomplishing that goal, he probably earned the eternal enmity of Phil and a few hundred thousand fans  -  now that was being a dick.

[Kletus]

Phil could have declared his first ball unplayable and just hit #3 off the tee.  That way there would have been no question.   Instead he made the mistake of playing a provisional and had to pay the piper once the original was found.

and yes... it was a dick move to go look for the ball once he said he didn't want to look for it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

As happens so often, situations arise while I'm playing that cause me to wonder "what if this happened, how would I handle it?"  And since the answer is usually, "I have no idea," I turn to you guys.

The scenario:  On a par 3, I yanked my tee shot left into some heavy brush.  It didn't appear to be marked as a hazard, and as it was quite likely the ball was gone.  So I played a provisional, which I hit OK, leaving myself a putt for bogey.  When I got to the green, I made a cursory effort to find the ball, basically looking in the grass just outside of the brush hoping it trickled out and I'd be able to play it without a penalty.  Once I realized that it wasn't on the grass, I gave up looking.  Now, while on the green, watching others putt and waiting for my turn - and still within the 5 minute search period - I am standing there leaning against my putter and enjoying the scenery.  I'm just glancing around at the view, and I turn towards where I had been looking for my ball and it dawns on me ... what if I see a ball in the brush up there, or what looks like a ball?  Am I required to go and try to identify it?

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

When we got close to the area that his ball might have been, while sitting in the golf cart on the cart path, he looked at the area and said "don't look for my ball it's gone, because if we find it I will have to take a nasty unplayable and I want to play my provisional".

Can I go look for it and if I find it make him follow proper rules?

A new question that is sort of a combination of the original question and SC's question above.  If you are the competitor or playing partner, and the player chooses not to look for his ball and you choose to comply with his request to also not look for it, however, you do what I did and just glance in the direction of where the ball probably was and see one.  Are you REQUIRED to tell the player that you may have inadvertently found his ball?

I'm going to guess that you do, and base that conclusion on an explanation I heard from Erik in regards to why you aren't allowed to hit a provisional when you suspect your ball may be in a hazard ... Because you would then be giving yourself the option of choosing between 2 balls in play.

Then again, if the player specifically asked you not to look, then he has already made his own choice, and just complying with his wishes isn't really choosing, so maybe I am wrong??

[Slice of Life]

I would just not "identify" it, and then after I holed out, go see if it was my ball and grab it if it was.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I would just not "identify" it, and then after I holed out, go see if it was my ball and grab it if it was.

Ahh, if only that was an option.  Yesterday I pull hooked my drive hard enough that I suspected it was OB and hit a provisional.  The second one was a perfect shot, leaving me right at the 200 yard marker for my 4th shot on a short par 5.  A chance at still saving par (albeit remote, but still a chance), a likely bogey, and at worse, a 7.  Obviously, it's worth a look to see if my first one was playable, because, who knows, maybe I got a good break.  Well, as soon as I got over the little hump and could see down near the fence, I wish I'd never gone over there.  I could see my original, plain as day sitting about 10" shy of the chain link fence that defines the boundary.  Sadly, though, I couldn't unsee the ball, and I was required to go identify it.  Add in a stupid decision to try and play it instead of taking an unplayable from the fence, and I ended up with an 8 on the hole.  But I learned a lesson yesterday.  Take your time and think things through first.  I was unable to advance the ball forward because there was a tree root in the way (not to mention I would have had to try and play it left handed).  So my options were to take an unplayable and move away from the fence, or take a goofy short hack at it to try and hit it backwards and away from the fence.  Like an idiot, I chose the latter.

If I'm not playing by the rules, I'm not learning little lessons like this until I'm doing it in a tournament.  I'd rather get this stupid stuff out of the way when it doesn't count. :)

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Not quite right.  It wasn't a fan, because his ball was down in the baranca where no fans are allowed.  It had to be a marshal or forecaddie who was looking for his 15 seconds of fame.  In accomplishing that goal, he probably earned the eternal enmity of Phil and a few hundred thousand fans  -  now that was being a dick.

Correct about it not being a fan.  However, I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to speculate as to his reasoning ...

Originally Posted by Kletus

Phil could have declared his first ball unplayable and just hit #3 off the tee.  That way there would have been no question.   Instead he made the mistake of playing a provisional and had to pay the piper once the original was found.

and yes... it was a dick move to go look for the ball once he said he didn't want to look for it.

Because I don't think that Phil huddled up with all of the marshals out there and announced that they stop looking.  I think (or at least I'd like to) that the marshal was just a little over zealous and was truly thinking he was being helpful, not that he had sinister motives.  But all's well that ends well, because I'm pretty certain that Phil won anyways.  It was during a playoff with Frank Lickliter, and I believe that Lickliter also butchered that hole and they continued on one more playoff hole.

Regarding the bold above ... that's silly.  Why risk eliminating the option of finding the original in a playable spot, or even a spot from which an unplayable drop is an option, when the worst that can happen is that you have to come back and repeat the provisional shot once more?

EDIT:  I looked it up ... http://articles.philly.com/2001-02-12/sports/25319391_1_frank-lickliter-playoff-phil-mickelson ... and as it turns out he actually WON the tournament on that hole, lol!!  Lickliter and Mick both hit their first shots into the baranca and both hit provisionals into the fairway and both had their originals found and both had to walk back and re-tee.  Lickliter put his in the fairway again, and Phil's was headed towards the canyon again, but a tree saved him.  Both hit their next shots on the green, Lickliter to 12 feet, however from that point he three-putted!!  Which allowed Mickelson to win the tourney then and there with a double bogey!  LOL!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Ahh, if only that was an option.  Yesterday I pull hooked my drive hard enough that I suspected it was OB and hit a provisional.  The second one was a perfect shot, leaving me right at the 200 yard marker for my 4th shot on a short par 5.  A chance at still saving par (albeit remote, but still a chance), a likely bogey, and at worse, a 7.  Obviously, it's worth a look to see if my first one was playable, because, who knows, maybe I got a good break.  Well, as soon as I got over the little hump and could see down near the fence, I wish I'd never gone over there.  I could see my original, plain as day sitting about 10" shy of the chain link fence that defines the boundary.  Sadly, though, I couldn't unsee the ball, and I was required to go identify it.  Add in a stupid decision to try and play it instead of taking an unplayable from the fence, and I ended up with an 8 on the hole.  But I learned a lesson yesterday.  Take your time and think things through first.  I was unable to advance the ball forward because there was a tree root in the way (not to mention I would have had to try and play it left handed).  So my options were to take an unplayable and move away from the fence, or take a goofy short hack at it to try and hit it backwards and away from the fence.  Like an idiot, I chose the latter.

If I'm not playing by the rules, I'm not learning little lessons like this until I'm doing it in a tournament.  I'd rather get this stupid stuff out of the way when it doesn't count. :)

As far as I know (and I acknowledge I may be wrong), seeing a ball, and identifying YOUR ball, are two different things. If I know I'm in better shape with my provisional, I won't even look unless it's a competitive round and my douchebag opponent goes and looks for it. lol