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Either way, he's not exactly Tom Brady. With him, it seems like he's either the best, or the worst. At least when I've seen him play...

Weak sauce. You were shown to be wrong, and you come back with that? Please. By that stat he's one of the best QBs of all time - top 20 and top 10.

He's had bad games. Find me a QB who hasn't.

Tom Brady won 3 super bowls with a worse offense, and nowhere near the defense Ben had. That's my point...is that Cowher never had an elite QB and still made 2 (and won 1 ) Super Bowls.

You think Tom Brady's offense was worse?

And if you think the Steelers had a better offense AND defense, then… the coach would be to blame.

Plus, you're comparing him to guys that played in a different era. Back when the QB wasn't as protected.

No, you are. You chose that statistic.

Geez.

P.S. Slice, suffice to say your perception is not aligned with reality. Ben might have played poorly in the games you paid attention to, but he's clearly played well in the games you either didn't watch, are forgetting, or are ignoring.

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Gentlemen, the season doesn't really start until December.  Many teams in the past have looked unbeatable in September, but faded in the end. As for The Kansas City Chefs: Guy Fieri and

Yes, it is a shame you couldn't see you old friend kissing his biceps tonight.

Rick, they're photographers.  They are not human, so they will look weird to normal humans like us.

Weak sauce. You were shown to be wrong, and you come back with that? Please. By that stat he's one of the best QBs of all time - top 20 and top 10.

He's had bad games. Find me a QB who hasn't.

You think Tom Brady's offense was worse?

And if you think the Steelers had a better offense AND defense, then… the coach would be to blame.

No, you are. You chose that statistic.

Geez.

P.S. Slice, suffice to say your perception is not aligned with reality. Ben might have played poorly in the games you paid attention to, but he's clearly played well in the games you either didn't watch, are forgetting, or are ignoring.

What about this stat:

He's No. 1 all-time in raping and crashing motorcycles. :-P

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The last couple of years Big Ben has been running for his life.  He has made stellar plays, but eventually it has to wear on the QB.  P. Manning and Brady have had one consistent advantage to Big Ben throughout their careers, a really good o-line and o-line scheme/coach.  Big Ben is much better and scrambling than either Manning or Brady and is really difficult to tackle.  But he is taking too many hits.

Agree with your feeling about Haley.  QBs under him get the snot kicked out of them.

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Weak sauce. You were shown to be wrong, and you come back with that? Please. By that stat he's one of the best QBs of all time - top 20 and top 10.

You think Tom Brady's offense was worse?

And if you think the Steelers had a better offense AND defense, then… the coach would be to blame.

No, you are. You chose that statistic.

Super Bowl 40: 22.6 QB rating. Worst of any winning Super Bowl QB. That's what I was thinking of.

And yes, Tom Brady's #1 receiver was who, Deion Branch? He probably doesn't even start on another team.
Let's look at Brady's super bowl offenses:
2001: #1 receiver was David Patten. A guy who never caught more than 61 passes in a season.
2003: #1 receiver was David Givens. A guy who caught 34 passes that year and was out of the league after 5 seasons.
2004: #1 receiver was a mixture between the mediocre Patten, Branch, or Daniel Graham. None of whom caught more than 44 passes that year,
Now let's look at Ben's super bowl offenses:
2005: #1 receiver was Hines Ward, a hall of famer, as well as Heath Miller.
2008: #1 receiver was Hines Ward, on top of Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller. All of which are better receiving options than any Brady had in his 3 Super Bowl wins.

Yeah...I'm taking the Steelers offensive weapons over the Patriots there...

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Super Bowl 40: 22.6 QB rating. Worst of any winning Super Bowl QB. That's what I was thinking of.

Cop out city. You said one thing, were shown to be wrong, tried to stick by it, and are now changing your story again.

Lame, man. I wouldn't have expected this from you. I'm done now.

And yes, boogie, his OL's been pretty shitty. Don't get me started on that. Tom Brady wouldn't have lasted 60 minutes behind the Steelers OL the last five or six years.

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2001: #1 receiver was David Patten. A guy who never caught more than 61 passes in a season. 2003: #1 receiver was David Givens. A guy who caught 34 passes that year and was out of the league after 5 seasons.

Starting RB Antowain Smith, baby! :-D P.S. You forgot Troy Brown. He might not have the gaudy numbers, but he was Brady's favorite target by far.

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Cop out city. You said one thing, were shown to be wrong, tried to stick by it, and are now changing your story again.

Lame, man. I wouldn't have expected this from you. I'm done now.

And yes, boogie, his OL's been pretty shitty. Don't get me started on that. Tom Brady wouldn't have lasted 60 minutes behind the Steelers OL the last five or six years.

I made one memory error. It's not a cop out. You're also pointing out one little thing, when my other points are valid, and shown to be right. It's not about changing my story, it's about me pointing out the stat I was thinking of. It happens...I can't remember 100 years worth of stats for every NFL player off the top of my head.

Saying "I'm done now" instead of addressing the other points, is a cop out.
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Starting RB Antowain Smith, baby!

P.S. You forgot Troy Brown. He might not have the gaudy numbers, but he was Brady's favorite target by far.

Haha, yeah, a beast that rushed for over 1,000 yards a whopping 2 times. :-D

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I made one memory error. It's not a cop out. You're also pointing out one little thing, when my other points are valid, and shown to be right. It's not about changing my story, it's about me pointing out the stat I was thinking of. It happens...I can't remember 100 years worth of stats for every NFL player off the top of my head.

Saying "I'm done now" instead of addressing the other points, is a cop out.

"Memory error?" Sure.

Brady has succeeded because of the schemes he's played and because he had a great offensive line. It didn't require star personnel, of which the Steelers have had… one. Hines Ward. And he was best known for being a good blocker, not for being an awesome wide receiver. He had Hines Ward and STILL got the 22.6 rating or whatever, did he not? If you think pointing out that the Steelers have had one HOF wide receiver is somehow proof, then you've set a very low bar.

P.S. Please multiquote in the future.

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"Memory error?" Sure.

Brady has succeeded because of the schemes he's played and because he had a great offensive line. It didn't require star personnel, of which the Steelers have had… one. Hines Ward. And he was best known for being a good blocker, not for being an awesome wide receiver. He had Hines Ward and STILL got the 22.6 rating or whatever, did he not? If you think pointing out that the Steelers have had one HOF wide receiver is somehow proof, then you've set a very low bar.

P.S. Please multiquote in the future.

Yeah, a memory error. I wasn't just making stuff up on purpose hoping you wouldn't look it up. lol. I wasn't THAT far off.

Either way, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Ben = Elite QB argument. He's probably the strongest QB in the league, if that means anything. :banana:

P.S. I posted that before I saw Jamo's post. Too lazy to try to edit and quote, and...it's just too much work.

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Yeah, a memory error. I wasn't just making stuff up on purpose hoping you wouldn't look it up. lol. I wasn't THAT far off.

You were way the **** off. You said one of the worst playoff QB ratings of all time, and he's top 20. And top nine all time for the regular season.

Either way, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Ben = Elite QB argument. He's probably the strongest QB in the league, if that means anything.

You're the only one talking about "elite QB" (and you started that within the last hour or so). Must be another memory error.

P.S. I posted that before I saw Jamo's post. Too lazy to try to edit and quote, and... it's just too much work.

Take the time in the future.

And stop quoting and responding to me. I'm going to go make dinner now.

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2004 - Lost in the AFC Championship to NE, who won the Superbowl.

2005 - Won the Superbowl.

2006 - 8-8

Hard to call that underachieving.

Before Ben, he went to the playoffs in 9 of 13 seasons, with Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, and Tommy Maddux.

I'm a Bills fan and I was really hoping we were going to get him a couple years ago.  Instead, Chan Gailey. :poo:

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Starting RB Antowain Smith, baby!

P.S. You forgot Troy Brown. He might not have the gaudy numbers, but he was Brady's favorite target by far.

Troy Brown is in my HoF.  He was on the team for 5 SB but injured in 2 of them.  They lost those two.  He also played corner and picked off Bledsoe when he was the Bills QB.  Mostly because Drew looked up, saw #80 open and through him the ball.  He covered Donald Driver against the Packers when Driver was the top receiver in the NFC.  Held him to 2 catches.  Now that is awesome.

Brown was very under appreciated.
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