Protecting that left knee

[freedrop]

It does if you know how to read the story. What may look like a "bad" swing to the untrained eye may actually accomplish everything (all 5 keys) that is required to hit quality golf shots. Jim Furyk has a strange looking way of doing it but he does all 5 keys well enough to win Majors.

Sorry EJ,that just isn't the case.Eamonn Darcy probably owns the weirdest swing ever seen in pro golf and David Leadbetter said he had no idea how it worked.

[iacas]

Sorry EJ,that just isn't the case.Eamonn Darcy probably owns the weirdest swing ever seen in pro golf and David Leadbetter said he had no idea how it worked.

Eamonn had all five keys as well.

Now, this is all…

So let's get back to the actual topic, please. Thank you.

[freedrop]

Spinning out to protect March11934's knee is not a problem,lots of pros spin out.

Iacas...can you direct me to where the 5 keys are written..I saw them briefly now can't find them...thanks.

[Ernest Jones]

Spinning out to protect March11934's knee is not a problem,lots of pros spin out.

Iacas...can you direct me to where the 5 keys are written..I saw them briefly now can't find them...thanks.

Type it (5 simple keys) into the search bar at the top of the screen. You can also search 5sk.

[festivus]

If you mean your left foot (as a RH) spins out after impact, that isn't a problem from what I have seen and do.There are videos of even Hogan doing that.There is one video of Hogan against a grid almost coming out of his shoes.

I think the issue is why does the foot change or golfer come out of his/her shoes?  If you're gonna leverage the ground then the sheer momentum of the ensuing power can take people out of their original foot placement.  I'll bet that's what led Hogan to that result.  On the other hand if you're spinning and slopping around, especially with a bum knee or poor hip rotation, then that is symptomatic of less than stellar balance and ripe for problems down the road.

I admit my question is not terribly easy to answer on a normal video analysis, but an important distinction to feel as an individual golfer.

I personally find swinging back and forth with a light kettlebell helps distinguish between what is bolted/solid and what is just sloppy symptoms.  The extra weight lights up the nervous system and helps awareness.

[saevel25]

I think the issue is why does the foot change or golfer come out of his/her shoes?  If you're gonna leverage the ground then the sheer momentum of the ensuing power can take people out of their original foot placement.  I'll bet that's what led Hogan to that result.  On the other hand if you're spinning and slopping around, especially with a bum knee or poor hip rotation, then that is symptomatic of less than stellar balance and ripe for problems down the road.

I admit my question is not terribly easy to answer on a normal video analysis, but an important distinction to feel as an individual golfer.

I personally find swinging back and forth with a light kettlebell helps distinguish between what is bolted/solid and what is just sloppy symptoms.  The extra weight lights up the nervous system and helps awareness.

I have to agree on that point there. Bubba Watson talked about how he purposely let his right foot turn through impact so that he doesn't tear his knee up. Tiger has done this as well. The video of Phil is just him swinging out of his shoes to hit it harder. Shoe rotation, or slipping has nothing to do with a solid swing other than it can happen depending on the golfer.

If a person does have issue, I think they should just flare their foot a bit.

[iacas]

Here's what the "jumping" often comes down to.

Pros or better players, particularly with the driver where distance is important and the ball is teed up (more margin for error), will jump so forcefully to create additional speed that they'll literally "jump" off the ground slightly. Because their hips are turning, and their foot has lost friction (with the ground), the foot spins out.

That can be an entirely different thing than spinning on your heel. You can spin on your heel because you've "unweighted" your foot by jumping (i.e. slightly smaller jumps than the kind in my second paragraph, i.e. no real big gaps between foot and ground, but enough to "unweight" the foot), or because you just move all of the pressure to your heel, unweight the FRONT part of your foot, and spin because your heel acts with reduced friction as a pivot point.

The latter would tend to be indicative - but not always - of a swing flaw. And it may not be a big flaw, but people who pivot hard on their front heel tend to have too much rotation prematurely in the downswing. Path tends to be INward.

---

When we visited Dr. Kwon (a biomechanist near Dallas, TX) he was just in the early stages of doing a trial on whether flaring the feet helps or hurts golfers. Flaring the foot helps reduce rotational torque on the knee, particularly in the follow-through, yet a lot of PGA Tour players play with very square toes.

I theorized, and Dr. Kwon liked this possibility, that players square their lead foot in to help slow their rotation during the downswing, then allow it to spin out (some even on their heels a little - as I said it's not always a swing flaw) to reduce pressure from the torque. In other words, they're trying to get the "best of both worlds:" the reduced downswing turning from having it squared in, but then releasing it and letting it turn out so as not to shred their knee during the follow-through.

[festivus]

When talking about knee torque vs. actual passive support damage/injury you have to consider how much lead hip internal rotation is available to the golfer.  Obviously some can handle the moments better than others.  But there's a reason pitchers and golfers experience asymmetry between lead and trail hips (and shoulders for that matter).

Did this study get published?  I'd love to see it.  Because you'd want to stratify by HIRD vs. not HIRD (hip internal rotation deficit)...otherwise it's not so helpful unless you track the people for a long time.  Probably would want imaging as well since torque can be controlled by multiple strategies.

Erik I appreciate your insight on this - I'm wondering if that little move you describe might also be a respectable timing mechanism, as some use re-planting the left foot, bump the left hip, etc.  Thoughts?

[MS256]

Here's what the "jumping" often comes down to.

Pros or better players, particularly with the driver where distance is important and the ball is teed up (more margin for error), will jump so forcefully to create additional speed that they'll literally "jump" off the ground slightly. Because their hips are turning, and their foot has lost friction (with the ground), the foot spins out.

That can be an entirely different thing than spinning on your heel. You can spin on your heel because you've "unweighted" your foot by jumping (i.e. slightly smaller jumps than the kind in my second paragraph, i.e. no real big gaps between foot and ground, but enough to "unweight" the foot), or because you just move all of the pressure to your heel, unweight the FRONT part of your foot, and spin because your heel acts with reduced friction as a pivot point.

The latter would tend to be indicative - but not always - of a swing flaw. And it may not be a big flaw, but people who pivot hard on their front heel tend to have too much rotation prematurely in the downswing. Path tends to be INward.

When we visited Dr. Kwon (a biomechanist near Dallas, TX) he was just in the early stages of doing a trial on whether flaring the feet helps or hurts golfers. Flaring the foot helps reduce rotational torque on the knee, particularly in the follow-through, yet a lot of PGA Tour players play with very square toes.

I theorized, and Dr. Kwon liked this possibility, that players square their lead foot in to help slow their rotation during the downswing, then allow it to spin out (some even on their heels a little - as I said it's not always a swing flaw) to reduce pressure from the torque. In other words, they're trying to get the "best of both worlds:" the reduced downswing turning from having it squared in, but then releasing it and letting it turn out so as not to shred their knee during the follow-through.

That's interesting and in a way it's similar to what I used to do, except I lifted my heel on the backswing to allow a full turn and then placed it back down flared to start the forward swing.

As I said in another comment that really didn't work that badly except for possibly giving me a more closed effective stance from the ankle up after placing it back down (which didn't seem to matter a lot).

I didn't (and still don't) have the option of placing the weight on my heel and letting the toe spin open like the OP does because I can't lift my toes above ground level. Even walking down stairs I have to always make sure that my toes are on the step and not just the heel because my foot would just hinge down and I would fall.

I've been living with that condition so long that it seems normal for me to not try to take weight off of my toes (because I simply can't).

[iacas]

Did this study get published?  I'd love to see it.

No. I think Dave was literally the first subject, and he simply had him hit balls with his foot squared up, his normal foot flare, and then excessive foot flare to see how it affected the rotational speeds of various joints (the markers on the joints, technically).

Erik I appreciate your insight on this - I'm wondering if that little move you describe might also be a respectable timing mechanism, as some use re-planting the left foot, bump the left hip, etc.  Thoughts?

I don't think it's a timing mechanism, but I was talking about the heel rotating in the downswing, often at impact and afterwards.

If you're talking about the Jack Nicklaus type move where he'd re-plant the foot (often more open than it started) around the top of his backswing, then yes, it could be a bit of a torque issue as well as a timing thing too.

[festivus]

Thanks Erik - good stuff.  An interesting thought that I might play around with on the force plates this week.

FWIW if Dr. Kwon didn't have force plates he couldn't get torque - only movement and a crude estimate of angular velocity.

On the timing, if your supposition proves correct then you could get 3 birds with 1 stone: alter deceleration, reduce torque and buy yourself a DS trigger.

[boogielicious]

@march11934 ,

Give the flared front foot time to work for you. @iacas and @mvmac had me convert to this three years ago as I had a tendency to spin on my front foot.  It took a while for it to be comfortable and it took a lot of stress off my left knee, which has osteoarthritis.  It helps if you keep your left knee flexed longer in the downswing.  It really shouldn't straighten until after impact.  To increase shoulder turn in the back swing, you can flare the back foot a bit as well.

[march11934]

@march11934 ,

Give the flared front foot time to work for you.  @iacas and @mvmac had me convert to this three years ago as I had a tendency to spin on my front foot.  It took a while for it to be comfortable and it took a lot of stress off my left knee, which has osteoarthritis.  It helps if you keep your left knee flexed longer in the downswing.  It really shouldn't straighten until after impact.  To increase shoulder turn in the back swing, you can flare the back foot a bit as well.

I have tried flaring the left foot for quite a while. Like i said earlier, i tried it while i was on the Hogan swing kick. Since then i have been trying to follow more of a Stenson swing in its entirety to the best of my ability. Squared feet, froward press, the grip technique that Pete Cowen describes. I have to admit, for me its been a revelation. Keeping my feet square gives me a sense of balance that i feel i loose when i start flaring out my left foot. Mishits have dropped to a point of being confident that i am going to hit the ball well rather having a question on the strike.

I can keep my left foot set on the follow through, but the long term damage is not worth it. And the sacrifice in ball striking with a flared left foot just doesn't seem worth it.

I have seem pros role over their ankle, seen them allow their foot spin, just can't seem to find the worth in preventing it from rotating if its planted until AFTER the strike. The ball doesn't know what I'm doing after its been hit. I understand the part about the follow through being an after effect of the strike. But if you look at the video i posted you can see 5 strikes in succession with consistency. Since i started working on Pete Cowen's principles, hitting irons is generally a confident part of my game. His Pyramid theory doesn't lend well to the off balance feeling i get when i flare the left foot.

[Club Rat]

@march11934,

Mike has posted photos from 2014 Northern Trust (LA Open) Discussion Thread - Page 2

In post # 28, he has captured photos of Ernie Els swing (address then finish) which show details of his footwork.

Notice how the front foot finishes "flared open"

I recall he had knee problems (possible surgery) several years back.

Maybe you can relate to set up square, then front foot rotating before or during weight transfer.

Just thoughts.

Club Rat

[rustyredcab]

To the OP,

Ready to completely change your swing? Moe Norman's swing puts much less stress on knees and back. Check it out at the link in my signature.

When I'm swing correctly, I am "hitting into a flexed lead knee," not spinning out. I switched to Moe's swing because my game was stagnant (stuck around a wildly inconsistent 18 handicap -- could shoot 85 and then back it up with a 102) and my knees and back were hurting from the violent rotation that comes from a conventional swing.

I still have knee and back issues but they are not caused by, or made worse by, golf. And when there is no snow, I hit a lot of balls.

[march11934]

@march11934,

Mike has posted photos from 2014 Northern Trust (LA Open) Discussion Thread - Page 2

In post # 28, he has captured photos of Ernie Els swing (address then finish) which show details of his footwork.

Notice how the front foot finishes "flared open"

I recall he had knee problems (possible surgery) several years back.

Maybe you can relate to set up square, then front foot rotating before or during weight transfer.

Just thoughts.

Club Rat

Thanks, going to check that out.

[mvmac]

Yea, I would flare that front foot a bit more, and then I would concentrate on keeping a bit more flex in that front knee. Your a bit too early with the extension and it looks like it is causing you to flip a bit at the ball. That could be due to the ball position as well, it is a tad to far back. I would move it forward 2 inches or so.  Yea, flare foot, little bit more knee flex going into impact, get that left wrist further forward towards your left hip at impact.

100% agree with this. Left foot being flared allows greater range of motion for the left knee, it can flex forward longer and rotate left (open up).

Video below, note where the pressure is tracing, towards the toes of the left foot. @march11934 , your's would be going more towards the left heel because of the way the left knee works.

Good drill to do for the left knee/Key #2 (Weight forward)

[march11934]

To the OP,

Ready to completely change your swing? Moe Norman's swing puts much less stress on knees and back. Check it out at the link in my signature.

When I'm swing correctly, I am "hitting into a flexed lead knee," not spinning out. I switched to Moe's swing because my game was stagnant (stuck around a wildly inconsistent 18 handicap -- could shoot 85 and then back it up with a 102) and my knees and back were hurting from the violent rotation that comes from a conventional swing.

I still have knee and back issues but they are not caused by, or made worse by, golf. And when there is no snow, I hit a lot of balls.

I tried his swing technique for a while from what i was able to get from the internet and then the ebook from Secret in the Dirt. I was able to get a lot out of it for driver but i had a difficult time getting the hang of it with irons and wedges. Funny story, one day i was at the range practicing Moe Normans stance, the way he held the club in line with his forearm? I actually had someone come up to me try getting me out of using the stance, LOL. He was an older guy that i thought he would have recognized the similarity in the stance. Not hard to duplicate. Its a very obvious stance. I even mentioned i was trying to work on what i saw with Moe's instructions from the internet. He looked at me like "why"? However for me, I found bringing  the swing back up close to my body to be much more consistent. I don't get much more than one day a week at the range. Maybe that's why? I do still use some of his swing theory with driver though. I would probably have to find an instructor to further learning his swing. Thanks