Directed Force Putters

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Hey,  who am I to say your feel is wrong.

My feel is I EMBRACE the toe of the putter.  Like I said,  I think grip pressure is very important.  I agree with Faxon.  

Ot

it seems strange so many one time posters talk about how this reverse fat goldfish putter is a magical tool that's cut 4 strokes off their game by itself.

I don't find that very convincing, guys.

Faxon here.  I really putt so much better by being dynamic as he says rather than trying to remain static.

 

It's all good, Jack. I've watched that vid several times previously. I just don't need to or want to take that long Crenshaw stroke. 

I laugh at the DF in good humor, you post injured because to you it's seems an insult to the game of golf. I've had people that I know want to ask me about it on the putting green, because they keep looking at it, but I stay busy. Cameron, Bett, and others also have designed putters that are not aesthetically pleasing. I wish TP Mills would make a similar performing putter - a Soft Tail that is lie balanced like this DF. But heck, I might toss the DF to the curb after a few rounds. Who knows?

We all know the DF is not traditional and it is designed for a certain purpose, and that's not for a taste of vomit in the mouth. I think its purpose is stability and to take the small muscles out of the stroke.

I"m not exactly a first-time poster, and I'm not claiming anything other than the consistency I'm experiencing over a month on the practice green is uncanny, the DF seems very stable, and it's a putter with which one can relax and not worry about anything other than making the putt. Of course, I would not have purchased it without the confidence that I can aim it where I think I'm aiming it. As we all know, there is no one putter panacea - it's what fits you.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Mr. Desmond

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Hey,  who am I to say your feel is wrong.

My feel is I EMBRACE the toe of the putter.  Like I said,  I think grip pressure is very important.  I agree with Faxon.  

Ot

it seems strange so many one time posters talk about how this reverse fat goldfish putter is a magical tool that's cut 4 strokes off their game by itself.

I don't find that very convincing, guys.

Faxon here.  I really putt so much better by being dynamic as he says rather than trying to remain static.

 

I didn't watch the whole video, but I was happy to hear Faxon say, "I try to take a longer backstroke". My number one putting feel is to make a backstroke that feels longer than necessary. This keeps me from accelerating or stabbing at the ball and promotes more of pendulum feeling. When I do this right, my distance control is bang on.

[phillyk]

I've read through several pages of this thread and I'm interested in giving it a test, because I enjoy trying new things that have good reviews.  My only problem is that I hate bulky putters.  We've had the Ping Ketsch Cadence TR sitting in our shop for a while and I can't set it up straight or attempt to putt with it.  I've tried others at shops or stores and same thing happens, everything feels wrong with them.  But, if this putter is as balanced or whatever as they say, then maybe it's worth trying.  But, in the end, I'll never switch putters, probably (depends if it breaks one day).  I've been using the same putter for 12 years and don't have any want/need to switch. 

For someone (not necessarily me, but just in general) who already has a smooth, tension-free stroke that has putts well overall, would this putter make a difference?  Or is it more for those who have a bad stroke and are looking for a putter that can "fix it" without having to do much work?

[billchao]

18 minutes ago, phillyk said:

I've read through several pages of this thread and I'm interested in giving it a test, because I enjoy trying new things that have good reviews.

I'm pretty sure I offered to review it some time ago and they never took me up on it. I have no problems with large putters and non-traditional shapes.

I would think if it is as good as they say, they'd be willing to back that up, then maybe we can put this thread to bed.

[JPitts]

18 hours ago, billchao said:

I'm pretty sure I offered to review it some time ago and they never took me up on it. I have no problems with large putters and non-traditional shapes.

I would think if it is as good as they say, they'd be willing to back that up, then maybe we can put this thread to bed.

I believe they are a sponsor over at golfwrx, so it looks like they are going through that forum for testing and golfer review.  So far the response over there has been very positive.  They were also included in last year's golf digest hot list.  Got 5 stars for innovation. 

Maybe they didn't want any part of this forum because of the tone in this thread? 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, JPitts said:

I believe they are a sponsor over at golfwrx, so it looks like they are going through that forum for testing and golfer review.  So far the response over there has been very positive.  They were also included in last year's golf digest hot list.  Got 5 stars for innovation. 

Maybe they didn't want any part of this forum because of the tone in this thread? 

Yeah, paying for reviews is always a good way to go over putting your putter up against science and unbiased reason.

The “tone” here has been dismissive of the science based on facts.

For example I talked with a renowned putting expert this weekend, and he said nearly everyone swings the putter on a plane other than the lie angle of the putter. So besides marketing what is the whole “lie angle balanced” stuff accomplishing?

You will note, too, that Bill’s offer was made years ago, during a period when the owner Bill Presse had posted under a different username and failed to disclose his affiliation or ownership. He lied.

Shady.

The company has had a number of shills since then. It’s their MO. Your MO?

Anyway the more you guys shill the more this topic stays on the top of the search engine results.

23 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

I will have to disagree with saying that the force opening or closing a putter face is negligible.

That's not how science works.

23 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

That's how putts are pushed and pulled by average golfers.

It's really not. I've got strokes of people who swing the putter outside with the face still what most would consider "closed," see that, and though they swing through left they know the face is closed so they hold it off and block the putt.

Another common pattern is to swing the putter back on a more severe arc, and then well out to the right on the follow-through, being so conscious of the path that they roll the face like crazy and pull the heck out of every putt. It's a "hook" putting stroke, and I kinda prefer it to the above "cut-across-block" stroke, but it's a pull and it's got nothing to do with how the putter behaves.

These guys will make the same stroke with virtually any putter, until they're trained to do something differently.

But no, pushes and pulls are not because of the negligible torques around the shaft from a putter that isn't "lie angle balanced" or whatever marketing name this stuff has.

I sell Edel putters and will say the same thing about their Torque Balanced putters, too, which aren't nearly as flexible for the fitting process as their classic series with millions of combinations. Fitting for AIM and SPEED remain the two most important things in putter fitting.

23 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

The blade goes back and opens, without some force to close the face it will remain open as the big muscles pull the putter through.

Actually the thing is… if these forces were present and non-negligible, a toe-balanced putter or a toe-hang putter would exhibit the opposite effect: it would close on the backswing and open (relative to its position at the end of the backstroke) on the downswing.

So while your "disagreement" with the facts are noted, the fact that you've got it completely opposite is telling.

23 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

It gets more important the heavier the putter is because there's that much force to add on.

The forces are negligible. And we don't snatch the putter away at 40 MPH nearly instantly.

[The Club Nut]

@iacas actually that's exactly how science works.  Objects in motion tend to stay in motion until acted upon by another force. If the toe is trending open under it's own weight bias, it's going to keep going that way until acted upon. The faster it moves, the more it wants to act when it changes direction. This includes things like the "pop" stroke, long slow strokes, and even short slow strokes. It doesn't have to be moving at 40mph.  All of them mean there is a lot of force acting to keep the putter stable and returning to square.  The small muscles have to engage in order to keep the putter square. If they engage and freeze, you have a push. if they over react, you get a pull.  Having a putter that is weighted properly to remain neutral and return to square is huge for any type of putter. 

in regards to people swinging on a different plane than their lie angle - the putter will remain square on any arc, the lie angle is there to ensure that the putter is soled correctly for your setup.  Even someone using a putter that does not technically fit them 100% will experience consistency using the lie angle balanced technology. Albeit they will experience a consistent push or pull due to the lie angle and the loft of the putter starting the ball on that line - very much like it would in an ill fitted iron. 

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, The Club Nut said:

If the toe is trending open under it's own weight bias, it's going to keep going that way until acted upon.

The clubface isn't opening by it's own weight. It's being acted upon by the golfer. This isn't like a perfect pendulum were muscles are not acting upon the golf club.

If the design is built solely on the fact they believe the clubface opens up because of its own weight then they are probably severely underestimating the golfers influence on the path and clubface rotation.

[The Club Nut]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I sell Edel putters and will say the same thing about their Torque Balanced putters, too, which aren't nearly as flexible for the fitting process as their classic series with millions of combinations. Fitting for AIM and SPEED remain the two most important things in putter fitting.

FYI, their Torque balanced putter does the same thing as the others in the revealer. 

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The clubface isn't opening by it's own weight. It's being acted upon by the golfer. This isn't like a perfect pendulum were muscles are not acting upon the golf club.

If the design is built solely on the fact they believe the clubface opens up because of its own weight then they are probably severely underestimating the golfers influence on the path and clubface rotation.

There's a jig setup that shows quite the contrary. It's just the way the putter is weighted. The minute it comes off the ground, it wants to open under it's own power. It's actually because it's NOT  a perfect pendulum that putters do this- thank you for pointing that out-  and that's what makes the balance of the DF important. 

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, The Club Nut said:

There's a jig setup that shows quite the contrary. It's just the way the putter is weighted. The minute it comes off the ground, it wants to open under it's own power. It's actually because it's NOT  a perfect pendulum that putters do this- thank you for pointing that out-  and that's what makes the balance of the DF important. 

That might be true of you dangle the club and allow the natural weight of the club to act upon the putter. Yet, the club isn't doing that when I set up to hit a putt. The toe end of the putter is where I want it to be. The face is aimed pretty good where I want it. It isn't twisting or moving.

Other forces besides that are acting upon the putter.

[The Club Nut]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That might be true of you dangle the club and allow the natural weight of the club to act upon the putter. Yet, the club isn't doing that when I set up to hit a putt. The toe end of the putter is where I want it to be. The face is aimed pretty good where I want it. It isn't twisting or moving.

Other forces besides that are acting upon the putter.

You're continually both missing and proving the point that DF is trying to make. You are absolutely correct - you have to impart more force to keep the other putters square, whereas the DF putter remains square to the stroke on it's own because of the design. There is no need for small corrections via the fine motor skills, only the big muscles need to be activated in the stroke. When soled, it is square, if you lift, or begin the stroke, it will remain square and will not make any attempt to open or close, eliminating the need to guide the head.  The vast majority of other putters will provide an opening force when just lifted off the ground from address. Even center shafted blades and bullseye types that remain square when lifted will want to rotate as soon as they are moved. 

[Stan Moore]

I think if anyone wants to find out about DFP putters you should go directly to the source, Bill Presse in Reno. He developed the putter and can tell you everything about it  

I am a authorized fitter for DFP and a Putting Instructor. It is the most stable putter I have ever had in my hands. 

Never had a complaint from those who purchased one. 

[Kevin Vanic]

been reading this post and catching up.....i have been looking at the DF since the beginning of the year. Based on the price tag, I went with an L2 putter. google it, it could be the heaviest putter out there at 620  grams. i putted great with it, 30-40 feet away, i could lag it to 3 feet all day. But i noticed that 7-10 feet, i missing, by like a foot to the left. i finally broke down and demo'd the DF a few weeks ago. We put the L2 in the revealer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSOa2mOZg5Y and the DF. Then i hit both. Long and short putts. And I could tell the DF head just wants to stay square. So far on my first 2 rounds with the DF, it's crazy, the thing works. Granted I sold my L2 immediately. I'm excited to get to the green and use this thing. Don't laugh off the looks, demo it. Then make an informed decision. Its not leaving my bag anytime soon. 

 

[Stan Moore]

There you go!  You sound like everyone else that has tried the putter during a round. 

Congrats. 

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, Stan Moore said:

There you go!  You sound like everyone else that has tried the putter during a round. 

Congrats. 

Being a fitter for DFP and putting instructor, is this putter something that will improve everyone's putting or just those that need help with their putting stroke? 

[Stan Moore]

There is not a person that doesn’t need to improve their putting.  UNtil you make 18 one putts  you need to improve. 

The putter will help everyone. 

[phillyk]

10 minutes ago, Stan Moore said:

There is not a person that doesn’t need to improve their putting.  UNtil you make 18 one putts  you need to improve. 

The putter will help everyone. 

Sorry with that reply, I'm out on this one. Its like saying, Until you get an eagle on every hole from holing out from the fairway, you need to work on your full swing.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

@iacas actually that's exactly how science works.

You completely misunderstood.

You said you "disagreed." You cannot disagree with a fact. The fact is, the torque forces that open and close the clubface when putting are incredibly, ridiculously small.

They're negligible.

Or, to put it another way, the force required to hold the putter is way more than enough to resist the twisting from a putter which isn't "lie angle balanced" or "torque balanced."

Furthermore, you got the forces backward. If there's a weight outside the shaft of the putter, and you push the shaft back as in the takeaway, the face will want to close slightly, then when you reverse direction, to swing down, it will want to open slightly. In reality, these forces almost perfectly oppose each other, so a toe-hang putter (a putter with the weight outside the shaft axis, toward the toe) will return back to square.

But none of that means anything or matters at all because the forces are so incredibly small.

6 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

It doesn't have to be moving at 40mph.

Things that accelerate as slowly as a putter do not have high torque forces just because they're slightly toe-heavy.

The 40 MPH was just a number used to illustrate that we don't "snatch" our putters back with really rapid acceleration that reaches high speeds quickly.

6 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

The small muscles have to engage in order to keep the putter square.

They're already engaged more than enough just holding onto the putter, so that it doesn't fall out of your hands. That force is more than enough to counter the rather negligible torques.

6 hours ago, The Club Nut said:

FYI, their Torque balanced putter does the same thing as the others in the revealer.

Because "The Revealer" is a marketing trick.

The Edel Torque-Balanced putters have one too - a ball-bearing in the shaft that shows it won't twist either. They too can put regular putters in them and have them twist all over the place.

It's marketing showmanship.

20 minutes ago, Stan Moore said:

There is not a person that doesn’t need to improve their putting.  UNtil you make 18 one putts  you need to improve.

Stan, that's a load of bull. You can roll putts down a Perfect Putter doing everything exactly the same, or roll balls from a machine that perfectly replicates the roll and speed, etc., and still make only one out of three or every other one, or one out of five. There's too much randomness in putting to say that you can make 18 one-putts.