Derek Jeter's Retirement

[Abu3baid]

That has nothing to do with anything on this topic. I just made the comment that A-Rod could have played Short Stop, which has nothing to do with PE Drugs.

Sure it does you said he hasn't been the greatest shortstop hitter in the past 60 years and then proceeded to mention A rod a known PE user. In regards to PE The number of pitchers using PE is what makes his numbers even better, and his ability to be an iron man for all these years and play while not using PE himself He is one of the reasons that the Yankees where making it to all those playoff games, he will always be considered one of the best ss and hits in the playoffs is not a stupid Stat but rather him taking advantage of the opportunity given to him! It's OK for you not to like him, but be fair

[Philly+15]

Let me start by saying that I'm a die hard Philly fan and hate, no, DESPISE every and anything New York!  However, I will give credit where credit is due here.  Jeter is that guy!  That athlete that you could tell your kids..... "that's the one you want to emulate"!   He was a total class act his entire career and played the game the way it should be played.  I have nothing but respect and admiration for #2.  As for his place among the greatests of all time.......  His post season numbers alone are amazing and unprecedented. I will definitely be telling my kids/grand kids that I had the pleasure to watch him play!

[Golfingdad]

That has nothing to do with anything on this topic.  I just made the comment that A-Rod could have played Short Stop, which has nothing to do with PE Drugs.

Really? Why is that, because you have to be on PED's to hit the ball? There are a ton of baseball players before the steroid era who were some great hitters. Look at Ted Williams, how about Pete Rose?

Well it helps that he's been to the playoffs and Word Series so many times. That is kinda stupid stat really. If he played for a team like Seattle (look at Ichiro, who is also a hitting machine). He wouldn't have nearly the number of hits in the playoffs. So he was really lucky to play for the Yankees and be on those great teams.

Actually, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with this topic.  I think a big reason he is so loved everywhere has something to do with the fact that he's been "clean" completely throughout the era where so, so many of his peers were not.  There are way, way fewer great (hall of fame caliber) players in this era with no ties to PEDs than there are with.  Off the top of my head I can only think of 3 ... Jeter, Griffey Jr. and Albert Pujols.  (I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind)

[saevel25]

Actually, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with this topic.  I think a big reason he is so loved everywhere has something to do with the fact that he's been "clean" completely throughout the era where so, so many of his peers were not.  There are way, way fewer great (hall of fame caliber) players in this era with no ties to PEDs than there are with.  Off the top of my head I can only think of 3 ... Jeter, Griffey Jr. and Albert Pujols.  (I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind)

It is sad that a player has to be celebrate for playing baseball the right way.

I would agree that. It seems that all the HOF caliber players over the past 20 years have used PED's or have been associated with them.

Another, not sure if he will get in the HOF, his average isn't that high, Jim Thome is an underrate power hitter during this era. He hit over 600 HR during the Steroid Era and never was once associated with PED use. Ranks 24th all time in RBI's, 7th all time in HR's, 2nd all time in Strike Outs (but Reggie Jackson is first and he's in the HOF)

[newtogolf]

Jeter is a lock to get into the HOF, I wouldn't be shocked if he gets in on the first ballot.

I really think you're underestimating Jeter's accomplishments and ignoring the fact his starting position for almost all of his career was shortstop which is who he'll be compared to.

Thome played 3rd base, 1st base and DH, never won a single gold glove and was a journeymen having played for at least 6 teams throughout his career.  He was a very good hitter, compared to others at his position he didn't stand out the way Jeter does.

[Golfingdad]

I really think you're underestimating Jeter's accomplishments and ignoring the fact his starting position for almost all of his career was shortstop which is who he'll be compared to.

He's ignoring that fact because he's saying he shouldn't have been playing that position.  That argument has some merit.  The reason why you'd normally compare a SS to a SS is because the position demands so much more than first base or left field.  But if somebody couldn't actually meet those demands, then its not really fair to include the position as a qualifier towards the accomplishments.

Now, I don't TOTALLY agree with that position because there is a whole lot more that goes into being a SS than not making errors - and I think Jeter has most of those other qualities in spades - but I do think that Matt's argument does have some merit.

[saevel25]

Jeter is a lock to get into the HOF, I wouldn't be shocked if he gets in on the first ballot.

I really think you're underestimating Jeter's accomplishments and ignoring the fact his starting position for almost all of his career was shortstop which is who he'll be compared to.

Thome played 3rd base, 1st base and DH, never won a single gold glove and was a journeymen having played for at least 6 teams throughout his career.  He was a very good hitter, compared to others at his position he didn't stand out the way Jeter does.

Honestly it doesn't matter if he played one position his whole career. If a hitter looses his defensive ability and moves to 1B, but still produces at the plate that does not diminish him as a player or a hitter. It actually shows some character that he is willing to do what needs to be done by not hurting the team with his bad defense. I could say that Jeter, especially with A-Rod out now, is doing a disservice to his team by playing a position he clearly can not cover defensively as he use to.

[Golfingdad]

If two players have nearly identical stats as a hitter, and lets say one plays OF and the other plays SS, you are saying that the SS is a better player? What if they both have the same number of gold gloves? That argument, that because he plays SS he should raised up higher is just stupid.

Absolutely!  SS is a MUCH, MUCH more important position than outfield, so equal stats from each position means that the SS gets the edge.

Full Disclosure:  I played shortstop.

[newtogolf]

Honestly it doesn't matter if he played one position his whole career. If a hitter looses his defensive ability and moves to 1B, but still produces at the plate that does not diminish him as a player or a hitter. It actually shows some character that he is willing to do what needs to be done by not hurting the team with his bad defense. I could say that Jeter, especially with A-Rod out now, is doing a disservice to his team by playing a position he clearly can not cover defensively as he use to.

That's your opinion but in terms of how those that vote for HOF candidates they do compare the candidates to other inductees at their position.  Mike Piazza is a HOF candidate because he was a catcher who had great hitting stats, if he played the corners or outfield his hitting wouldn't cause him to stand out.

The Yankees played Jeter at shortstop because he allowed them to have an better batting order without a huge defensive sacrifice in the field.  Jeter may not have been a great defensive shortstop but he's far from a liability at the position.

[saevel25]

That's your opinion but in terms of how those that vote for HOF candidates they do compare the candidates to other inductees at their position.  Mike Piazza is a HOF candidate because he was a catcher who had great hitting stats, if he played the corners or outfield his hitting wouldn't cause him to stand out.

The Yankees played Jeter at shortstop because he allowed them to have an better batting order without a huge defensive sacrifice in the field.  Jeter may not have been a great defensive shortstop but he's far from a liability at the position.

Yep my opinion, but heck if they want to put down "Greatest hitting short stop ever" that is fine, What a great accomplishment for a position renowned for having some of the worst hitters.

[newtogolf]

Yep my opinion, but heck if they want to put down "Greatest hitting short stop ever" that is fine, What a great accomplishment for a position renowned for having some of the worst hitters.

That is what made him stand out, the position was traditionally seen as an automatic out.  He played decent shortstop and had the hitting skills of an outfielder, that is huge for a team.  He also won 5 golf gloves, which is 3 more than Cal Ripken Jr, ARod and Larry Bowa won.

[iacas]

That is what made him stand out, the position was traditionally seen as an automatic out.  He played decent shortstop and had the hitting skills of an outfielder, that is huge for a team.  He also won 5 golf gloves, which is 3 more than Cal Ripken Jr, ARod and Larry Bowa won.

The gold glove stuff was discussed above. IMO based on the facts I've seen he's a defensive liability. And I don't think anyone is saying he isn't a HoF player.

[dsc123]

He's a below average fielder, but that doesn't mean he's playing out of position or should be judged against outfielders.  By definition, half the league plays below average defense.  You guys act like the yankees would have won more games if he and Tino Martinez switched positions.  He was below average, not out of position.  And made up for that by hitting .310/.370 for his career.  On the balance, WAR (including his below average defense) has him as the 5th best to ever play the postion and the best since WWII.

Overrated and "overhyped" are two different things to me.   If you're going to talk about being overrated, you consider his production.  But if you're going to talk about him being a media darling, then all the other stuff comes in.

I think its pretty hard to be overrated when you're the best offensive shortstop in 60 years, unless people think you're the #1 player of all time at any position, and nobody thinks that.   Its stupid for Olberman and everybody else to sit here yelling "Jeter isn't #1 ever" because nobody says he is.

I also don't think he's "overhyped" because he a cultural icon.  He has played shortstop for the New York Yankees for 20 years, he's handsome, he leaves gift baskets, and he won 5 world series championships.  A historical figure beyond the field.  So of course he gets all sorts of media attention.  Media attention is driven by things other than baseball skill.

I hate the patch wearing and all the going away gifts, but Rivera and Chipper got that, too.  I think that should just not happen to anyone.

[Golfingdad]

He's a below average fielder, but that doesn't mean he's playing out of position or should be judged against outfielders.  By definition, half the league plays below average defense.  You guys act like the yankees would have won more games if he and Tino Martinez switched positions.  He was below average, not out of position.  And made up for that by hitting .310/.370 for his career.  On the balance, WAR (including his below average defense) has him as the 5th best to ever play the postion and the best since WWII.

Overrated and "overhyped" are two different things to me.   If you're going to talk about being overrated, you consider his production.  But if you're going to talk about him being a media darling, then all the other stuff comes in.

I think its pretty hard to be overrated when you're the best offensive shortstop in 60 years, unless people think you're the #1 player of all time at any position, and nobody thinks that.   Its stupid for Olberman and everybody else to sit here yelling "Jeter isn't #1 ever" because nobody says he is.

I also don't think he's "overhyped" because he a cultural icon.  He has played shortstop for the New York Yankees for 20 years, he's handsome, he leaves gift baskets, and he won 5 world series championships.  A historical figure beyond the field.  So of course he gets all sorts of media attention.  Media attention is driven by things other than baseball skill.

I hate the patch wearing and all the going away gifts, but Rivera and Chipper got that, too.  I think that should just not happen to anyone.

These are all really good points.

One point to add:  The whole "going away presents" thing is a bit hokey, but its not like Jeter is the first to go through this.  A lot of outgoing stars in all of the major sports have gone through this.  Of course, it's partially their fault because for this to happen, they have to announce their retirement before the season starts.

[mmoan2]

He's a below average fielder, but that doesn't mean he's playing out of position or should be judged against outfielders.  By definition, half the league plays below average defense.  You guys act like the yankees would have won more games if he and Tino Martinez switched positions.  He was below average, not out of position.  And made up for that by hitting .310/.370 for his career.

Overrated and "overhyped" are two different things to me.   If you're going to talk about being overrated, you consider his production.  But if you're going to talk about him being a media darling, then all the other stuff comes in.

I think its pretty hard to be overrated when you're the best offensive shortstop in 60 years, unless people think you're the #1 player of all time at any position, and nobody thinks that.   Its stupid for Olberman and everybody else to sit here yelling "Jeter isn't #1 ever" because nobody says he is.

I also don't think he's "overhyped" because he a cultural icon.  He has played shortstop for the New York Yankees for 20 years, he's handsome, he leaves gift baskets, and he won 5 world series championships.  A historical figure beyond the field.  So of course he gets all sorts of media attention.  Media attention is driven by things other than baseball skill.

I also don't buy that for much of his career he was a below average fielder. You could make a case that 2 of his gold glove years were deserved, or at least have merit(3, not so much...). In 2010, which is a non-GG year , IMO, he only committed 6 errors all year as a SS. That is exceptional. That's less than an average first baseman. His range was pretty poor, but as a former pitcher, I'd rather have a SS behind me who sucks up everything that comes his way over a quick, flashy guy who also makes lots of errors. In two of his GG years, he had a better range factor and fielding percentage than league average, which is uncommon. He also had a very strong arm for the first 10 years of his career. Since 2011 he has been a liability. This year and last, a huge liability. He's also 40 years old and the Yankees don't have anyone else to play there. He's never had great range, though it was at least average for many years. His fielding percentage across his career has consistently been above average. He's not a HOF fielder , for sure, but not the slouch he's been portrayed as.

[jamo]

I've read through this thread a few times, and I honestly don't know what people are arguing about.

[billchao]

I've read through this thread a few times, and I honestly don't know what people are arguing about.

Agreed.

[meenman]

Possibly the greatest all around player in my lifetime. It goes deeper than geek stats - great player, great role model and always gave it his all. Bernie was my favorite of the group, but it is going to be a bit odd with someone else as SS next year.