Free relief from cooling fans around greens?

[MS256]

If this has been covered somewhere my apologies, but I can't find it.

I was in a tournament a couple of years ago and they had greens cooling fans around most of the greens. The rules sheet they provided said there was no free relief from being obstructed by one of the fans.

Never came into play for my group but back at the clubhouse there was a pretty big argument about it. Evidently somebody had violated that rule (because they didn't read the rules sheet). A few golfers were adamant that there should be free relief and the head pro at the course was just as adamant that there shouldn't be free relief.

What is standard procedure for relief from those fans?

None of the courses I play regularly have them so I don't know.

[Rulesman]

Assuming the fans are not movable they are Immovable Obstructions and normal free relief is available for lie of ball, stance and intended area of swing. There is no free relief for line of play unless there is a local rule declaring them to be Temporary Immovable Obstructions.

Prohibiting normal free relief is not permitted.

[turtleback]

  Rulesman said:

Assuming the fans are not movable they are Immovable Obstructions and normal free relief is available for lie of ball, stance and intended area of swing. There is no free relief for line of play unless there is a local rule declaring them to be Temporary Immovable Obstructions.

Prohibiting normal free relief is not permitted.

It seems like a weird situation.  I wonder why the pro in question was so adamant, since his position seem pretty unreasonable as described.  Even the line of play relief should have been available via local rule, since it seems pretty apparent that the fans were temporary - at least I cannot ever remember playing a course that had permanent fans in place.

[MS256]

  Rulesman said:

Assuming the fans are not movable they are Immovable Obstructions and normal free relief is available for lie of ball, stance and intended area of swing. There is no free relief for line of play unless there is a local rule declaring them to be Temporary Immovable Obstructions.

Prohibiting normal free relief is not permitted.

Thanks. Sounds like the pro is probably right if they are not movable. (?)

  turtleback said:

It seems like a weird situation.  I wonder why the pro in question was so adamant, since his position seem pretty unreasonable as described.  Even the line of play relief should have been available via local rule, since it seems pretty apparent that the fans were temporary - at least I cannot ever remember playing a course that had permanent fans in place.

I guess it comes down to what is "movable" on line of play. Even though the fans of course could be moved it would take some equipment to do it, they seem "permanently" mounted, and they usually leave them in place from what I remember.

As they were arguing in the clubhouse the pro called somebody to verify his position, and get it right. I have no idea who he called but evidently they agreed with him. BTW he seemed like a really conscientious guy that was trying his best to make the right decision.

Hmmm. So I'm still not 100% certain after two replies from guys that really know the rules. I'll make sure to ask how they want to do it when I go to one of those courses and play by whatever they want to play by.

P.S. I suppose it was the golfer's fault for not reading the rules sheet but most of the golfers there said they would have done the same thing if they hadn't read it.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

Thanks. Sounds like the pro is probably right if they are not movable. (?)

I guess it comes down to what is "movable" on line of play. Even though the fans of course could be moved it would take some equipment to do it, they seem "permanently" mounted, and they usually leave them in place from what I remember.

As they were arguing in the clubhouse the pro called somebody to verify his position, and get it right. I have no idea who he called but evidently they agreed with him. BTW he seemed like a really conscientious guy that was trying his best to make the right decision.

Hmmm. So I'm still not 100% certain after two replies from guys that really know the rules. I'll make sure to ask how they want to do it when I go to one of those courses and play by whatever they want to play by.

P.S. I suppose it was the golfer's fault for not reading the rules sheet but most of the golfers there said they would have done the same thing if they hadn't read it.

I'm curious, did the rule sheet say no relief at all or just no relief from line of play?  They are 2 very different things.  If the former then the pro was wrong since they cannot change Rules of Golf.  If the latter, then assuming no local rule was adopted,  he was correct, but IMO it was a bad decision since the fans easily fit the definition of Temporary Immovable Obstruction from the specimen sample local rule in Appendix I:

Quote:

A temporary immovable obstruction (TIO) is a non-permanent artificial object that is often erected in conjunction with a competition and is fixed or not readily movable.

Therefore they could have made a local rule.  Since apparently they did not then they cannot give line of play relief.  But they also cannot deny the forms of relief provided in the rules for Immovable Obstructions as Rulesman pointed out.

[MS256]

  turtleback said:

I'm curious, did the rule sheet say no relief at all or just no relief from line of play?  They are 2 very different things.  If the former then the pro was wrong since they cannot change Rules of Golf.  If the latter, then assuming no local rule was adopted,  he was correct, but IMO it was a bad decision since the fans easily fit the definition of Temporary Immovable Obstruction from the specimen sample local rule in Appendix I:

Therefore they could have made a local rule.  Since apparently they did not then they cannot give line of play relief.  But they also cannot deny the forms of relief provided in the rules for Immovable Obstructions as Rulesman pointed out.

I wasn't very clear about that in my first post but "line of play" was the issue.

Looking at the definition of "temporary immovable object" I'm not sure how I would classify those fans. They are not in conjunction with the tournament or really even in conjunction with everyday play. They are mounted there and when the weather is hot they are turned on. When not used they are still there.

[Rulesman]

  MS256 said:

I wasn't very clear about that in my first post but "line of play" was the issue.

Looking at the definition of "temporary immovable object" I'm not sure how I would classify those fans. They are not in conjunction with the tournament or really even in conjunction with everyday play. They are mounted there and when the weather is hot they are turned on. When not used they are still there.

It would seem that they are permanent Immovable Obstructions. Therefore normal free relief under rule 24 for lie of ball, stance and area of intended swing. Relief is not available for line of play.

[Fourputt]

While it's entirely within the committee's discretion to enforce that condition, I think that it's a poor choice on their part.  Since the local rule is available, and such obstructions are usually fairly close to the greens, it seems to be a bit more reasonable to give relief for line of play.

However, those players arguing the point because they didn't bother to read the hard card are totally out of line.

[Asheville]

  Fourputt said:

While it's entirely within the committee's discretion to enforce that condition, I think that it's a poor choice on their part.  Since the local rule is available, and such obstructions are usually fairly close to the greens, it seems to be a bit more reasonable to give relief for line of play.

However, those players arguing the point because they didn't bother to read the hard card are totally out of line.

The hard card for Carolinas Golf Association events gives greenside cooling fans TIO status, thus imparting line of play relief also. (The reality that the fans are not very temporary causes some heartburn, but since there's no other available mechanism for dealing with them that seems equitable.)

[joekelly]

Along a similar line.  My course has large, bright lamps installed at the 18th green, for games finishing late in the day. Here in tropics night falls fast, no twilight.  But if my ball on green and i am putting directly into beam of light, can't see ball well, or cup, could i claim relief from temporary obstruction?  I mean the lamp went on 5 mins ago, and no one else is bothered as their ball not in beam of lamp. Cannot turn lamp off until game over.

I recall pro golfer in SoAfrica stuck a Band-Aid on his putter to prevent sun reflection off putter. His action upheld, i think.

[turtleback]

  Asheville said:

The hard card for Carolinas Golf Association events gives greenside cooling fans TIO status, thus imparting line of play relief also. (The reality that the fans are not very temporary causes some heartburn, but since there's no other available mechanism for dealing with them that seems equitable.)

It is a whole different world with which I have no familiarity.  I've never played on a course that had a cooling fan, temporary OR permanent.  My prior response had mistakenly assumed they were there because of some very unusual situation.  I had no idea they were permanent.

[wadesworld]

  turtleback said:

It is a whole different world with which I have no familiarity.  I've never played on a course that had a cooling fan, temporary OR permanent.  My prior response had mistakenly assumed they were there because of some very unusual situation.  I had no idea they were permanent.

A green which is surrounded by vegetation or in a depression often suffers from a lack of air movement.  Without the air movement, water on the grass can't evaporate, and it's that evaporation which keeps the grass cool.  So, fans must provide artificial air movement to prevent too much stress on the turf.  They're particularly prevalent with bent grass in southern climates.  You'll won't see as many (or often any) on courses that use warmer-season grasses such as Bermuda.

[ColinL]

  joekelly said:

Along a similar line.  My course has large, bright lamps installed at the 18th green, for games finishing late in the day. Here in tropics night falls fast, no twilight.  But if my ball on green and i am putting directly into beam of light, can't see ball well, or cup, could i claim relief from temporary obstruction?  I mean the lamp went on 5 mins ago, and no one else is bothered as their ball not in beam of lamp. Cannot turn lamp off until game over.

I recall pro golfer in SoAfrica stuck a Band-Aid on his putter to prevent sun reflection off putter. His action upheld, i think.

Not  allowed.   See Decision 4-1/5  http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-04/#d4-1-5

[turtleback]

  wadesworld said:

A green which is surrounded by vegetation or in a depression often suffers from a lack of air movement.  Without the air movement, water on the grass can't evaporate, and it's that evaporation which keeps the grass cool.  So, fans must provide artificial air movement to prevent too much stress on the turf.  They're particularly prevalent with bent grass in southern climates.  You'll won't see as many (or often any) on courses that use warmer-season grasses such as Bermuda.

I had no idea.  Thanks for the explanation.

[David in FL]

  turtleback said:

I had no idea.  Thanks for the explanation.

Me neither!

[JerseyThursday]

I’ve played several courses in Ohio that have these. All of ones I’ve seen are permanent. They are huge and the post is buried in the ground (I assume in concrete).

[turtleback]

  JerseyThursday said:

I’ve played several courses in Ohio that have these. All of ones I’ve seen are permanent. They are huge and the post is buried in the ground (I assume in concrete).

Thanks for posting that.  I didn't even know what they looked like.

[Shorty]

They would be the same as a bench or a sand box or a ball washer or a distance stake.

Anyone who says you aren't entitled to relief is crazy.

The confusion may have been a "line of play" issue.

You would have to get relief if it interfered with your stance or swing, not if it was between you and your target.

Immovable Obstructions and Abnormal Ground Conditions (Rules 24-2 and 25-1)