Does "competitive" need to be "offensive"?

[saevel25]

Call it what you want, it is offensive. He is not being focused or methodical, he is purposefully slow, particularly if he is in a situation where his pace is not being monitored. He can't get away with it in GAP tournaments, but he is known for it in Club Championship matches, where the staff doesn't have the balls to push the members and/or penalize them. This past season he was in a foursome that took 4:45 to play in the quarters of the Club Championship, and all of the other three players in the group noted that it was all because of him.

You stated it right there, best way to put an end to it is to enforce the rules that are in place to curb slow play. Put the guy on the clock.

I'd agree if a person is purposely breaking the rules on pace of play, that could be considered offensive during competition. Again it is perception. To a fast player, normal play can seem slow. Do they have a right to complain about it being offensive because it doesn't match their normal pace of play, though it doesn't break any rules in competition?

If a person wants to skirt the line on what is allowable slow play, then they are allowed to. Everyone plays by the same rules. Just as equally a person can play really fast and try to throw off the pace of a more methodical player, a more methodical player can throw off the pace of a fast player. It happens.

[Morocco Mako]

You find this attitude in all walks of life, not just sports and not just golf. It's typical of people with small...egos.

Cars, jobs, clothes, video games, you name it. There is always some jerk who thinks he can make himself run faster by cutting off other people's legs, and it will never change.

Simply mark it up to them being insecure individuals who don't  understand what it means to be a gentleman, and move on. You can't fix the world, you can only learn how to deal with it.

[BrrrrMan78]

Great topic! My club has players of all skill, focus, pace, anger, cheaters, rules know it alls, and guys just out to have fun, so you never know who you might get paired with. I have found the less I care about what anyone else is doing the more I enjoy my rounds. I used to play competition and would be bummed when I played bad, or got paired with a jerk, or with the guy who really didn't care that he was shooting 90 and shouldn't have even entered the tournament, and I realized I never stopped to enjoy some of the great courses I was playing and some of the great shots I was hitting. About 10 years ago I just stopped caring about what my scorecard said at the end of the day, and I just tried to hit the best shot I could at each opportunity. I am competitive, and I love to gamble on the course, but I don't take anything with me once the round is over. One of my best friends, and frequent partners is extremely focused on the course, doesn't talk to our opponents, ever, and seems like a total DB. It def gets under the skin of our competition and he knows it. We play against guys just like him all the time, and I just chuckle because they just end up trying to out DB each other, and I usually coast along and end up with the best score. Golf is fun, competition is what makes it great, and the beauty of being outside is you can simply walk away from the DB's and enjoy the views all to yourself. Focus on your own game, and relish in the fact that you could be stuck working! D

[Fourputt]

I've known a few players with rather poor skills who were still quite intolerant of those who played worse than they did, so it's not just the low handicappers who sometimes exhibit this trait.  I think that we all need to step back occasionally and remember that we all had to start somewhere.  For most of us, golf had a slow learning curve, in part because we had to learn in our spare time, putting work and family and life in general ahead of golf.  To then reach a point in that cycle and look down on another player because they haven't reached your lofty heights indicates to me a high level of hypocrisy.  I feel that one has to look at it from the viewpoint of how he would feel as a 25 handicap if a 3 handicapper suggested that the course should bar anyone above 15.  I've actually heard such things suggested, and not all in jest either.

I do feel that there are courses where a beginner doesn't belong, not only because he may have difficulties with pace of play there, but simply because it won't be much fun shooting 9 or 10 on every hole, and losing a couple of dozen balls in the process.  It is great that there are courses for all levels of players, and it's good that most beginning players realize that it's more fun to play a course that mostly allows them to continue play after their bad shots, as well as after the good ones.

I've been as low as a 10 handicap and even then I didn't like playing on courses that were what I considered overly penal for slightly errant shots.  I'm fairly certain that I've never played a tee set that was rated higher than about 130, and I don't feel like I've missed a thing.

[Lihu]

I've known a few players with rather poor skills who were still quite intolerant of those who played worse than they did, so it's not just the low handicappers who sometimes exhibit this trait.  I think that we all need to step back occasionally and remember that we all had to start somewhere.  For most of us, golf had a slow learning curve, in part because we had to learn in our spare time, putting work and family and life in general ahead of golf.  To then reach a point in that cycle and look down on another player because they haven't reached your lofty heights indicates to me a high level of hypocrisy.  I feel that one has to look at it from the viewpoint of how he would feel as a 25 handicap if a 3 handicapper suggested that the course should bar anyone above 15.  I've actually heard such things suggested, and not all in jest either.

I do feel that there are courses where a beginner doesn't belong, not only because he may have difficulties with pace of play there, but simply because it won't be much fun shooting 9 or 10 on every hole, and losing a couple of dozen balls in the process.  It is great that there are courses for all levels of players, and it's good that most beginning players realize that it's more fun to play a course that mostly allows them to continue play after their bad shots, as well as after the good ones.

I've been as low as a 10 handicap and even then I didn't like playing on courses that were what I considered overly penal for slightly errant shots.  I'm fairly certain that I've never played a tee set that was rated higher than about 130, and I don't feel like I've missed a thing.

I've noticed this too. I feel like they might be anxious about their next shot ans want to get to their ball as quickly as possible.

It's probably not be a conscientious disdain for other people.

I play in a group of golfer's dads, and one of them rushes ahead regardless of if someone is hitting behind him or not. He seems to rush off impatiently to get to his ball and finish the hole, and move on to the next hole. In fact, in the past, I remember doing this. It was really rude.

As I am getting better, I tend to not rush off to my next shot. I just wait until it's my turn to play.

[GolfLug]

I will vote no. Just uncouth in the spirit of the game.

Only thing I will add is one person's perception of offensiveness maybe simply gamesmanship for another. And it can and DOES make a huge difference in the performance of the recipient that is remotely thin skinned. It can make or break a winning game.

Specific example: Played at a local handicapped individual tournament with monetary prizes last year. One of the players in our group (Call him A. 12 handicap) started with three straight ho-hum pars right out of the gate. In particular he hit great tee shots on all three. Each one of the rest had at least a bogey or worse by then. So far so good in general. Everybody courteous and applauding the good shots, etc.

So on the fourth hole I notice  the lowest handicapper (Call him B. 9 handicap and my cart mate) parked the cart about 10 yards ahead of the tee marker (on the path). As soon as A hit his tee shot, B immediately walked up to the cart to get his driver in sight of A. He timed his so that the A's ball had barely left the clubface. I've seen this on TV with professional players but they have to walk to their ball so understandable. But I could tell it surprised A got to him a bit. Of course Mr. B smelt the blood and started doing it every time from there on whenever the opportunity arose, putting and driving especially. You could tell, he even started to take an 'about to start walking' stance while A was taking his stance, ever so slightly getting in his head. It seemed to have noticeable effect on A's rhythm and demeanor. By the second nine A completely s**t the bed. All along B was never actually violating etiquette cause he would actually stay completely still during the swing.

Not sure if that was the cause of the ensuing not so great play of B but A's action was very noticeable and generally more brusque, tad bit abrasive since it was in sharp contrast to the first three holes. He didn't do it to the other two including me as much 'cause our play never threatened right from the beginning.

So, no, don't have to be a jerk but be aware when somebody is doing it subtly enough not to get called out but doing enough to break your song push your game into hiding. Doesn't really happen that often but be aware particularly if you are new and expect all golfers to be 'gentlemanly' when in competition.

[Lihu]

I will vote no. Just uncouth in the spirit of the game.

Only thing I will add is one person's perception of offensiveness maybe simply gamesmanship for another. And it can and DOES make a huge difference in the performance of the recipient that is remotely thin skinned. It can make or break a winning game.

Specific example: Played at a local handicapped individual tournament with monetary prizes last year. One of the players in our group (Call him A. 12 handicap) started with three straight ho-hum pars right out of the gate. In particular he hit great tee shots on all three. Each one of the rest had at least a bogey or worse by then. So far so good in general. Everybody courteous and applauding the good shots, etc.

So on the fourth hole I notice  the lowest handicapper (Call him B. 9 handicap and my cart mate) parked the cart about 10 yards ahead of the tee marker (on the path). As soon as A hit his tee shot, B immediately walked up to the cart to get his driver in sight of A. He timed his so that the A's ball had barely left the clubface. I've seen this on TV with professional players but they have to walk to their ball so understandable. But I could tell it surprised A got to him a bit. Of course Mr. B smelt the blood and started doing it every time from there on whenever the opportunity arose, putting and driving especially. You could tell, he even started to take an 'about to start walking' stance while A was taking his stance, ever so slightly getting in his head. It seemed to have noticeable effect on A's rhythm and demeanor. By the second nine A completely s**t the bed. All along B was never actually violating etiquette cause he would actually stay completely still during the swing.

Not sure if that was the cause of the ensuing not so great play of B but A's action was very noticeable and generally more brusque, tad bit abrasive since it was in sharp contrast to the first three holes. He didn't do it to the other two including me as much 'cause our play never threatened right from the beginning.

So, no, don't have to be a jerk but be aware when somebody is doing it subtly enough not to get called out but doing enough to break your song push your game into hiding. Doesn't really happen that often but be aware particularly if you are new and expect all golfers to be 'gentlemanly' when in competition.

So, "B" was not confident enough in his skills so he had to do this stuff to "A"?

If B had done this to me, there is a remote chance I would nervously pull one of my tee shots and nail "B" in the process. Not that I don't already pull my shots.

[GolfLug]

So, "B" was not confident enough in his skills so he had to do this stuff to "A"?

If B had done this to me, there is a remote chance I would nervously pull one of my tee shots and nail "B" in the process. Not that I don't already pull my shots.

Haha. I would have loved to see that one. Not sure if confidence/skill or lack thereof had anything to do with what he did. Some people can do whatever they can simply because they can. Isn't TW famously one of those (mind gamer, that is)?

But really, he stayed right by the side during the swing just getting in a 'start' stance, froze for the swing. But moved immediately into sight and forward just after impact. Next time you see a tour event on tee notice how after the last player hits his shots the other players and caddie immediately start walking to the next shot even before the player starts to retract from his finish pose. I don't know about you but lot of people can feel a little rushed like they are lagging behind. Similar in effect to when you have a fast group pushing a slower group almost twisting their arm into let them play through (I know, letting a fast group play through is not a bad thing but the feeling of being pushed can be a game changer for some that are thin skinned).

Not all bullying is balls out. Lot of us golfers depend on a certain state of mind to execute well, it's easy to break some of them by just subtly changing the picture. No histrionics necessary. Was only pointing out to be aware when that happens to you.

[newtogolf]

In just three years of playing I've seen some mind games.  I've had guys do subtle things like point out water hazards or out of bounds as I'm about to tee off.  I've had them cross over my putting line but not actually step on my line.  I've also had them give me incorrect yardages (if I forgot my rangefinder or GPS).  It's all mind games and they usually only come out when they are losing.  I played a lot of sports, trash talking doesn't bother me but if you're going to do it, expect it back.

If I was Player A I'd have made a comment about him needing a head start to keep pace with us since he seemed to be moving a bit slow today, especially his swing.

[Lihu]

Haha. I would have loved to see that one. Not sure if confidence/skill or lack thereof had anything to do with what he did. Some people can do whatever they can simply because they can. Isn't TW famously one of those (mind gamer, that is)?

But really, he stayed right by the side during the swing just getting in a 'start' stance, froze for the swing. But moved immediately into sight and forward just after impact. Next time you see a tour event on tee notice how after the last player hits his shots the other players and caddie immediately start walking to the next shot even before the player starts to retract from his finish pose. I don't know about you but lot of people can feel a little rushed like they are lagging behind. Similar in effect to when you have a fast group pushing a slower group almost twisting their arm into let them play through (I know, letting a fast group play through is not a bad thing but the feeling of being pushed can be a game changer for some that are thin skinned).

Not all bullying is balls out. Lot of us golfers depend on a certain state of mind to execute well, it's easy to break some of them by just subtly changing the picture. No histrionics necessary. Was only pointing out to be aware when that happens to you.

Oh, I get it, now. He was out of sight until the shot was made. That seems okay. Why would "A" be bothered by that?

In just three years of playing I've seen some mind games.  I've had guys do subtle things like point out water hazards or out of bounds as I'm about to tee off.  I've had them cross over my putting line but not actually step on my line.  I've also had them give me incorrect yardages (if I forgot my rangefinder or GPS).  It's all mind games and they usually only come out when they are losing.  I played a lot of sports, trash talking doesn't bother me but if you're going to do it, expect it back.

If I was Player A I'd have made a comment about him needing a head start to keep pace with us since he seemed to be moving a bit slow today, especially his swing.

That happened this morning to me, but since I am a regular at this course there were no issues. Plus, I figured it was defective equipment. Those watch GPS can't be all that accurate. There was one par 3 that they announced was 145. On guy pulled out his hybrid, and the other one a 6i. Before selecting my club, I looked at the permanent markers and the yardage was 165, but the tees were 5 yards up so the flag was at 165 at the back of the green. Pulled out my 6i and made a couple yards past pin high. Too bad I pulled it, and it dropped into a tree behind a bunker.

Pace of play, huh? We were being caught up by some ladies today.

[iacas]

Poll removed because it was 53-0 in favor of "No" and had the typo that was in this original thread title ("competive").

[Aflighter]

I will vote no. Just uncouth in the spirit of the game.

Only thing I will add is one person's perception of offensiveness maybe simply gamesmanship for another. And it can and DOES make a huge difference in the performance of the recipient that is remotely thin skinned. It can make or break a winning game.

Specific example: Played at a local handicapped individual tournament with monetary prizes last year. One of the players in our group (Call him A. 12 handicap) started with three straight ho-hum pars right out of the gate. In particular he hit great tee shots on all three. Each one of the rest had at least a bogey or worse by then. So far so good in general. Everybody courteous and applauding the good shots, etc.

So on the fourth hole I notice  the lowest handicapper (Call him B. 9 handicap and my cart mate) parked the cart about 10 yards ahead of the tee marker (on the path). As soon as A hit his tee shot, B immediately walked up to the cart to get his driver in sight of A. He timed his so that the A's ball had barely left the clubface. I've seen this on TV with professional players but they have to walk to their ball so understandable. But I could tell it surprised A got to him a bit. Of course Mr. B smelt the blood and started doing it every time from there on whenever the opportunity arose, putting and driving especially. You could tell, he even started to take an 'about to start walking' stance while A was taking his stance, ever so slightly getting in his head. It seemed to have noticeable effect on A's rhythm and demeanor. By the second nine A completely s**t the bed. All along B was never actually violating etiquette cause he would actually stay completely still during the swing.

Not sure if that was the cause of the ensuing not so great play of B but A's action was very noticeable and generally more brusque, tad bit abrasive since it was in sharp contrast to the first three holes. He didn't do it to the other two including me as much 'cause our play never threatened right from the beginning.

So, no, don't have to be a jerk but be aware when somebody is doing it subtly enough not to get called out but doing enough to break your song push your game into hiding. Doesn't really happen that often but be aware particularly if you are new and expect all golfers to be 'gentlemanly' when in competition.

Im not sure if id blame that being the reason that the 12 handicapper started doing bad because a 12 handicapper isn't exactly gonna keep parring and playing that good most of the time.If you saw that the 12 handicapper looked like he saw the guy doing that then yeah theres a chance that messed him up.Someone doing something like that to try and throw off someone playing well should have his rearend kicked and banned from playing with others.In golf theres no place for gamesmanship anyways.To me as golfers we should never wish bad stuff on other golfers even if they are beating us because that's what makes golf a gentlemans game.When im playing I have enough to think about than playing mind games.

[GolfLug]

Im not sure if id blame that being the reason that the 12 handicapper started doing bad because a 12 handicapper isn't exactly gonna keep parring and playing that good most of the time.If you saw that the 12 handicapper looked like he saw the guy doing that then yeah theres a chance that messed him up.Someone doing something like that to try and throw off someone playing well should have his rearend kicked and banned from playing with others.In golf theres no place for gamesmanship anyways.To me as golfers we should never wish bad stuff on other golfers even if they are beating us because that's what makes golf a gentlemans game.When im playing I have enough to think about than playing mind games.

Yes, as true gentlemen of golf we must kick rearends of whoever plays mind games with us and hit them with our crooked tee shots.

[Morocco Mako]

@GolfLug,

The way to handle mind games is to play them right back.

If someone started to try playing mind games by rushing me off the tee or putting green, I'd (1) act as if I didn't even notice them, (2) deliberately stand my position for a while, and (3) start doing something strange like say holding my thumb up like painters do, or making a box with my hands like movie guys do, or saying "ouch, I've got a pebble in my shoe" and taking my shoe off right there standing on the tee to check it--anything to disrupt his speeding things up pattern.

In other words, the way to deal with someone trying to play mind games is to make sure they know you are laughing at their attempts. Getting upset or telling them to stop only fuels their efforts.

[Fourputt]

@GolfLug,

The way to handle mind games is to play them right back.

If someone started to try playing mind games by rushing me off the tee or putting green, I'd (1) act as if I didn't even notice them, (2) deliberately stand my position for a while, and (3) start doing something strange like say holding my thumb up like painters do, or making a box with my hands like movie guys do, or saying "ouch, I've got a pebble in my shoe" and taking my shoe off right there standing on the tee to check it--anything to disrupt his speeding things up pattern.

In other words, the way to deal with someone trying to play mind games is to make sure they know you are laughing at their attempts. Getting upset or telling them to stop only fuels their efforts.

While such bush league stuff rarely bothers my game, if I wanted to get back at someone for doing that, I'd just start by stepping back from the ball after address and asking them to step back a bit, regardless of whether they were in my vision or not.  Just something to start getting back into their heads.  If they aren't doing for a mind game, then I don't worry about them.

[ghalfaire]

For whatever it is worth, there are some butt ends around and it has little to do with their handicap index.  But fortunately they are few and far between in my opinion.  Most people I know that play the game are considerate and pleasant to be around.  Most are like you describe you "pop" and are gentleman.

[phan52]

While such bush league stuff rarely bothers my game, if I wanted to get back at someone for doing that, I'd just start by stepping back from the ball after address and asking them to step back a bit, regardless of whether they were in my vision or not.  Just something to start getting back into their heads.  If they aren't doing for a mind game, then I don't worry about them.

This. I know people who do stuff like this all the time and I let them know that I am on to it.

Another thing that happens this time of year is looong shadows in your line of play. Most of it is inadvertent, but not all of it.

[No Mulligans]

On the golfing landscape there seem to be a few, if not many, highly competitive players that appear to have a disdain for the beginner or recreational golfer. These "elite" players often whine about the perceived lack of skills, dedication, or pace of those "lesser" golfers.

My father introduced me to the grand game with an emphasis on etiquette and respect for the game, the players, and the course. Make no mistake, Pop was a scratch player and thoroughly enjoyed winning a few trophies and more than a few bucks in friendly competition, but always appreciated the fellowship of other golfers and never did I hear him disparage the least player on the course.

Pop was a true gentleman, in victory or in loss. He loved the game and those who shared it with him. Though I may never attain to the level of play of my father, I pray that I may share the spirit of the game that made him the great golfer, and the fine man that he was.

I like your Pop.