Is a scratch or low single digit HCP realistically attainable without tuition?

[MS256]

If you, OP, had played the piano at age 10 and could play simple tunes, TwinkleTwinkle and 3 BlindMice very well,  but then switched to football for 5 years, then to archery till age 22, then took up computer programming, and now at age 26 wanted to be a competent concert pianist and hoping to earn your living doing that,  what would you rate your chances? Impossible or only very unlikely?

Shorty says it best: play well and enjoy.

I thought the OP asked a hypothetical question about what might be possible "if someone had a lot of natural talent."

I know it may seem a bold question to ask, but hypothetically if someone had a lot of natural talent, is it attainable without tuition? I mean excluding reading up on best practice, techniques, looking for tips,  etc...

[iacas]

I believe that there is TOO MUCH info out there.

No. There's too much BAD information out there.

And people in general make the mistake of thinking that if one pill is good, the whole bottle is better.

[mchepp]

No. There's too much BAD information out there.

And people in general make the mistake of thinking that if one pill is good, the whole bottle is better.

This is very true.

My suggestion is to find the few that have good information and listen to them.

[Golfingdad]

This is very true. My suggestion is to find the few that have good information and listen to them.

Hint: you've already find one of them.

[flopster]

No. There's too much BAD information out there.

And people in general make the mistake of thinking that if one pill is good, the whole bottle is better.

Yep, the guy in the next stall at the range may have the best of intentions but could cause more harm than good, post a swing video.

[Spitfisher]

Any thing is possible if you put your mind to it. I have never had a lesson, besides my dad and grandfather showing me how to grip a club initially. I have been scratch and have since crept back up, but still under 5

[David in FL]

Any thing is possible if you put your mind to it.

Not true at all! I agree though, that given the necessary athleticism and physical health, the question posed by the OP is quite possible. Though seldom the easiest....

[vangator]

I wonder if you would like to elaborate. I'm not saying you are blowing smoke....or your HS coach was blowing smoke..... but the fact that you don't "try out" for the Olympic Wrestling team until you're qualified to do so through a series of regional, national and international competitions and any HS wrestler who's coach has suggested that route to him must have been phenomenal in HS (see; Henry Cejudo, Chance Marsteller and Aaron Pico) in which case you would have been nationally famous in the world of scholastic wrestling and I may have heard of you. Just curious.

It was definitely on potential. In fact, I lost my last match to go to the state tournament to a guy my JV guy had beaten. HS wrestling tournaments are exhausting and I had no gas left in the tank that day. I was physically dominant in my weight group. I was 5'8 at 105 lbs. I was the only guy in my school (at least on the wrestling and football teams) who could lift twice his weight (225 max at the time). I can't do that now. :-) I lived on a farm and biked into town everyday. I would push myself until my legs were absolutely burning. My leg strength was good to say the least. Plus, on the mat I was mean as a snake. My coach's motto was "It's easier to beat a cripple". When you throw a cross face and if his nose breaks, oh well.... It's easier to beat a cripple. In the 70's, in college we had mandatory phys ed. One of the courses was wrestling. I hadn't wrestled for a couple of years but was still in good shape. There was a guy that was spouting off how he was going to whip everybody's a$$. He was a hot-shot HS wrestler from some other state (Mass I believe). He was in my weight group. He looked pretty tough too. When I wrestled him, I destroyed him. I never saw a guy go from such an over the top attitude to such a whipped pup I actually felt bad for him. Memories. That was a long time ago.

[Patch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rb72

I wonder if you would like to elaborate. I'm not saying you are blowing smoke....or your HS coach was blowing smoke..... but the fact that you don't "try out" for the Olympic Wrestling team until you're qualified to do so through a series of regional, national and international competitions and any HS wrestler who's coach has suggested that route to him must have been phenomenal in HS (see; Henry Cejudo, Chance Marsteller and Aaron Pico) in which case you would have been nationally famous in the world of scholastic wrestling and I may have heard of you. Just curious.

It was definitely on potential. In fact, I lost my last match to go to the state tournament to a guy my JV guy had beaten. HS wrestling tournaments are exhausting and I had no gas left in the tank that day. I was physically dominant in my weight group. I was 5'8 at 105 lbs. I was the only guy in my school (at least on the wrestling and football teams) who could lift twice his weight (225 max at the time). I can't do that now. I lived on a farm and biked into town everyday. I would push myself until my legs were absolutely burning. My leg strength was good to say the least. Plus, on the mat I was mean as a snake. My coach's motto was "It's easier to beat a cripple". When you throw a cross face and if his nose breaks, oh well.... It's easier to beat a cripple.

In the 70's, in college we had mandatory phys ed. One of the courses was wrestling. I hadn't wrestled for a couple of years but was still in good shape. There was a guy that was spouting off how he was going to whip everybody's a$$. He was a hot-shot HS wrestler from some other state (Mass I believe). He was in my weight group. He looked pretty tough too. When I wrestled him, I destroyed him. I never saw a guy go from such an over the top attitude to such a whipped pup I actually felt bad for him.

Memories. That was a long time ago.

Back in high school a lot of us had jobs. My best friend chopped wood for the local beach front motels after school. I worked at the local golf course,  but did not golf that much. At the time we had the state heavy weight champion wrestler at our school. He had been so for three straight years. He had been undefeated for so long people couldn't remember the last time he lost a match. My best friend was not athletic at all, and was basically a gentle giant. Our senior year, one thing led to another, and he wrestled our state champion. My friend went 6-0 against the champ in our phys-ed class. Shear strength won over great technical moves. Fast forward some 30 years later. My friend and I met up, and I talked him into playing a round of golf. He had never touched a golf club in his life. He had no clubs, and the course had none to rent, so we decided to just use mine. The first hole we played was a 180 par three. We had worked together a little prior to this match on his swing. He won the the toss, and tee'd off first. One swing, and one hole in one. Go figure. He shot 135 that day. To my recollection he has never touched a golf club since that day. Like posted above "Memories......" .

[Shorty]

Any thing is possible if you put your mind to it.

The most ridiculous and demonstrably false platitude rears its head yet again.

[mchepp]

Hint: you've already find one of them.

Michael

[Golfingdad]

Why thank you for the compliment @golfingdad . That is a nice compliment coming from you... Wait... I think you are talking about @iacas aren't you. Yeah, he is smart too..

Lol, you're welcome! I was talking about TST in general ... Although, yeah, the best info is almost entirely from @iacas and @Mvmac .

[Yukari]

The most ridiculous and demonstrably false platitude rears its head yet again.:poo:

I would have to agree with @shorty on this one - GASP!!! Jk You'll get as much as you put into it but will be limited by your natural ability for golf. Not every athlete will be good at golf. See Charles Barkeley.

[Mulldog]

I took up golf at 14. Practiced and played par 3 courses for 2 years. Grew up playing cricket so the general swing was there..

Got my first handicap of 14 when i was 16. By the time i finished juniors i was down to 9.

The next 3 years i dropped another 3 shots to be off 6 after increasing the amount of practice time. Then life, injuries, women etc got in the way and i left the sport for 4 years.

Started playing again two years ago and hovered between 11-9 for 12 months. I was playing off 11 in Nov 2013. To this stage i had never had a lesson, purely self taught. I thought it was about time I saw a pro to give me a few tips, mainly for ball striking (i knew i also had to increase my practice time again)

I had a half hour lesson and in the space of 2 months dropped 5 shots. I plateaued at 6 again. I had every thing aligned again i just needed to hone the skills.

Up the practice time and concentrated on short game, chipping and putting, chipping and putting. Slowly dropped down to 4 this year after shooting my first sub par round.

Threatening to get down to 3 in the last month or so..

All i can say is this: I plateaued at 6 twice in my life, now ive broken through that barrier! Its all about constant practice and maybe a few lessons, even if its just for a few touch ups, they always help.

[Pretzel]

It is completely possible, but you have to put in the time and effort to improve. This summer I pretty much went without instruction (I had a couple lessons, but they were playing lessons that really just told me some of the same information as LSW did) and was able to drop my handicap from around a 10 to where I am at right now with a summer of work that I could have spent much more efficiently.

I went about it by kind of "brute forcing" it and just spending so many hours on the golf course that I improved, but there were a number of things I wish I had done from the start of the year:

1) Buy a copy of Lowest Score Wins, a cheap instructional book that will do you miles of good on how to practice (this I couldn't have done at the start of the year)

2) Make sure to go out a record a baseline for all your statistics over at least three rounds (this I didn't do)

3) Using those statistics, determine your weaknesses and rank them from biggest weakness to biggest strength (this I didn't do)

4) Using strategies outlined in LSW, practice to work on your weaknesses specifically and play to your strengths (this I didn't do)

5) Make every hour of practice count. Don't just beat balls for the sake of beating balls (this I didn't do)

6) Start up a "My Swing" thread here and seek out feedback for improvement (this I didn't do)

7) Play or practice every day, even if you can only get out for 30 minutes to an hour. (this I did do)

8) Play in tournaments, even if you do poorly, to get a feel for competition and a true sense of how well you play (this I did do)

If you do all of these things and have a bit of luck, you may be able to attain it in a year or two. It could take a while though, and that's something you have to be prepared for should it take longer than you planned.

[rebelrob]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Well I have always been fairly sporting/athletic, and have I would say a better than most natural ability when it comes to sports, so I'm hoping a sub 5 hcp is reachable for me, I'd be more than happy with that. This is definitely not one of those 'can I be a pga tour pro in 5 years' thread, just looking for a bit of an opinion from some guys who have been playing far longer than I have. I would like to at some point get into a bit of competitive golf, but that will be purely to entertain myself as I get better, and to push myself a little bit. Out if interest, if anyone has a bit of advice regarding getting into competitive golf, I'd appreciate a bit of info about it.

I have a good idea of the basic physics of golf, in the sense that hitting the ball with a square face (hitting straight through the ball, not cutting or pushing it. You'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure of all the correct terminology yet) will result in it traveling straight due to spin etc... but I also know there's a lot more to it than that. I played football (soccer) for many years so have a good idea on how striking a ball can affect its flight/travel. I'm amazes at the wealth of info I've come across on this sight already in a few weeks just about body/hand positioning and stuff though, I'm always seeing a little bit of info on here and trying it out.

Quote:

I think lessons would be a great idea if you could afford them. It would really jump start and hasten the progress. I assume that is what you mean by "tuition". You must be British since you also used a Pound symbol instead of dollars. I've never heard the word "tuition in this context.

Yes, sorry, by that I mean lessons, coaching etc.

If you drive 250 yards on average and 3 or 4 putt everything for your 21 handicap, I would put your chances as very high.

It's very hard to say otherwise.

What do you mean by this? If I can drive reasonably, but my putting sucks at the moment, I 'should' be able to drop enough shots over time to get there? Well, That's is pretty much the case at the moment except from a few stray drives, but my putting is something I need to work on more than anything else.

Yep, the guy in the next stall at the range may have the best of intentions but could cause more harm than good, post a swing video.

I will definitely be getting round to this at some point. I just need to remember to record myself when I'm there with a friend.

Thanks again.

[rb72]

Back in high school a lot of us had jobs. My best friend chopped wood for the local beach front motels after school. I worked at the local golf course,  but did not golf that much. At the time we had the state heavy weight champion wrestler at our school. He had been so for three straight years. He had been undefeated for so long people couldn't remember the last time he lost a match. My best friend was not athletic at all, and was basically a gentle giant. Our senior year, one thing led to another, and he wrestled our state champion. My friend went 6-0 against the champ in our phys-ed class. Shear strength won over great technical moves. Fast forward some 30 years later. My friend and I met up, and I talked him into playing a round of golf. He had never touched a golf club in his life. He had no clubs, and the course had none to rent, so we decided to just use mine. The first hole we played was a 180 par three. We had worked together a little prior to this match on his swing. He won the the toss, and tee'd off first. One swing, and one hole in one. Go figure. He shot 135 that day. To my recollection he has never touched a golf club since that day. Like posted above "Memories......" .

Well I hate to rain on your parade but I have to take stories like this with a grain of salt. You’re basically saying your friend who never played golf in his life picked up a driver and because he chopped wood could drive the ball 350 yards and then went out and beat Davis Love six matches in a row. It’s NOT going to happen. Even if your recollections are correct, I guarantee that if your friend went 6-0 against a three time state champ in “phys-ed class” it was because the state champ let your friend beat him ..oh…maybe SIX TIMES. If they wrestle a match that counts your friend doesn’t get out of the first period. It just doesn’t happen. I don’t care how strong your friend was (from chopping wood). Newaflash: It takes a fair amount of strength to be 3X state champ and that would be wrestling specific strength (not wood chopping strength).

Back in high school a lot of us had jobs. My best friend chopped wood for the local beach front motels after school. I worked at the local golf course,  but did not golf that much. At the time we had the state heavy weight champion wrestler at our school. He had been so for three straight years. He had been undefeated for so long people couldn't remember the last time he lost a match. My best friend was not athletic at all, and was basically a gentle giant. Our senior year, one thing led to another, and he wrestled our state champion. My friend went 6-0 against the champ in our phys-ed class. Shear strength won over great technical moves. Fast forward some 30 years later. My friend and I met up, and I talked him into playing a round of golf. He had never touched a golf club in his life. He had no clubs, and the course had none to rent, so we decided to just use mine. The first hole we played was a 180 par three. We had worked together a little prior to this match on his swing. He won the the toss, and tee'd off first. One swing, and one hole in one. Go figure. He shot 135 that day. To my recollection he has never touched a golf club since that day. Like posted above "Memories......" .

It was definitely on potential. In fact, I lost my last match to go to the state tournament to a guy my JV guy had beaten. HS wrestling tournaments are exhausting and I had no gas left in the tank that day. I was physically dominant in my weight group. I was 5'8 at 105 lbs. I was the only guy in my school (at least on the wrestling and football teams) who could lift twice his weight (225 max at the time). I can't do that now. I lived on a farm and biked into town everyday. I would push myself until my legs were absolutely burning. My leg strength was good to say the least. Plus, on the mat I was mean as a snake. My coach's motto was "It's easier to beat a cripple". When you throw a cross face and if his nose breaks, oh well.... It's easier to beat a cripple.

In the 70's, in college we had mandatory phys ed. One of the courses was wrestling. I hadn't wrestled for a couple of years but was still in good shape. There was a guy that was spouting off how he was going to whip everybody's a$$. He was a hot-shot HS wrestler from some other state (Mass I believe). He was in my weight group. He looked pretty tough too. When I wrestled him, I destroyed him. I never saw a guy go from such an over the top attitude to such a whipped pup I actually felt bad for him.

Memories. That was a long time ago.

Well then it’s even more obvious to me that your coach was blowing smoke. To tell a kid who never even got to his state tournament he should “try out for the Olympics” would be tantamount to a HS golf coach telling one of his golfers who can drive the ball 300yds but can’t break 80 that he should forgo college and try out for the PGA tour. That coach should be fired. Wrestling, like golf has many, many, many levels of proficiency and there are many, many levels between even the greatest HS wrestlers and Olympians. Even some of the best college wrestlers have tried and not come close to qualifying for the Olympics. I would venture to say this applies more so to wrestling than golf. If a high school golfer who just takes up the game in his sophomore year and is a 4 or 5 handicap by the time he graduates with four year of college and improving at the same rate, MAY have a chance someday to reach the PGA tour, but a HS wrestler who, for whatever reason never makes it to his state tournament in HS will NEVER be an Olympian. As far as the guy you beat in college…well suffice it to say if you think (amateur)  golfers are bad at exaggerating their prowess, they’re nothing compared to wrestlers. This guy probably had a mediocre (and mostly JV) HS wrestling career and thought that gave him an edge over everybody else, which would have been the case until he runs into someone else with HS experience, like yourself.

[Lihu]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Well I have always been fairly sporting/athletic, and have I would say a better than most natural ability when it comes to sports, so I'm hoping a sub 5 hcp is reachable for me, I'd be more than happy with that. This is definitely not one of those 'can I be a pga tour pro in 5 years' thread, just looking for a bit of an opinion from some guys who have been playing far longer than I have. I would like to at some point get into a bit of competitive golf, but that will be purely to entertain myself as I get better, and to push myself a little bit. Out if interest, if anyone has a bit of advice regarding getting into competitive golf, I'd appreciate a bit of info about it.

I have a good idea of the basic physics of golf, in the sense that hitting the ball with a square face (hitting straight through the ball, not cutting or pushing it. You'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure of all the correct terminology yet) will result in it traveling straight due to spin etc... but I also know there's a lot more to it than that. I played football (soccer) for many years so have a good idea on how striking a ball can affect its flight/travel. I'm amazes at the wealth of info I've come across on this sight already in a few weeks just about body/hand positioning and stuff though, I'm always seeing a little bit of info on here and trying it out.

Quote:

Yes, sorry, by that I mean lessons, coaching etc.

What do you mean by this? If I can drive reasonably, but my putting sucks at the moment, I 'should' be able to drop enough shots over time to get there? Well, That's is pretty much the case at the moment except from a few stray drives, but my putting is something I need to work on more than anything else.

I will definitely be getting round to this at some point. I just need to remember to record myself when I'm there with a friend.

Thanks again.

What I meant is that without the natural ability to drive 250 yards or more, you will have not have any reason to believe, at this point, that you can get to scratch or the low single digits.

Many of the other suggestions are great, and will allow you to get to the best you can ever be. Just don't give up if you can't get there as quickly as you would like, or ever.

This is a fun game. Just keep at it.