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Sang-moon Bae Faces Military Duty in South Korea

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Originally Posted by CarlSpackler

Quote:

The only reason they have those rights is because others are dying to protect them.

Adding to my previous post, I don't believe a draft is a good idea unless absolutely necessary. An army of willing participants is much stronger than one with unwilling participants. Given the fact that S. Korea has a draft though, I don't see celebrity or personal belief as an exemption. Just my opinion of course.

Yet it is their choice to fight and protect those rights.

Actually with a draft, it is not a choice.

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This is really all off topic. I apologize for bringing it up. I have no way of knowing if SMB is opposed to the military service.

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If a person is a pacifist then they have a right not to want to fight. I do not think a country has a right to force a person into violence.

It pretty much goes against human nature to sit by while someone pillages your home / town / city / country. I am making a distinction of when someone can and cannot use the "I'm a pacifist" argument. You are free to have your own opinion of course, but if you can't or don't want to make that distinction then nothin I can do really. "We can agree to disagree?" ;)

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It pretty much goes against human nature to sit by while someone pillages your home / town / city / country.

I am making a distinction of when someone can and cannot use the "I'm a pacifist" argument. You are free to have your own opinion of course, but if you can't or don't want to make that distinction then nothin I can do really.

"We can agree to disagree?" ;)

No it goes against human nature to sit by and not survive. Life is about survival. There is flight or fight syndrome. There is nothing in human nature with regards to protecting your home, town, city or country. There is human nature to protect yourself and your life. If that means running away or standing in fighting that is the choice of the person. Loyalty is not human nature.

There is no when or when not. A pacifist is a pacifists. If a true pacifist is given a gun and forced to march against an enemy then that pacifist will lay down his gun in battle and face his enemy with peace in mind not violence. In that regard, do you want a pacifist in battle who is a liability to others? That is what you will get when you force people to fight for a cause they do no believe in. You get liabilities.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by cubdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

The reality is that his country is bordered by one of the most dangerous and unstable countries in the world with which they have already had one major war, and his country believes they need to be prepared to defend themselves.  I have to say it is laughable to me to think that someone should get a special exemption from what everyone else has to do because they play golf.  When did being a pro golfer become something that gets this kind of special privilege?  IMO he should fulfill his obligation, as great golfers such as Hogan and Snead did before him, or renounce his citizenship.

Sometimes we need to step outside of the golf world into the wider one.

I stand by my comment that Bae is of greater value to his country playing golf than being in the military. There are many ways to serve your country besides donning a uniform. BTW I'm a 4 year Viet Nam vet.

cubdog

Agree.  There are other services he could do representing South Korea while still playing.

Such as?  In WWII a lot of Hollywood personalities were exempted, but they worked to help bolster morale, both at home and in the war theaters, during a desperate period in history.  At the same time, a lot of them did serve in combat (Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, Audie Murphy).  In fact a lot of PGA Tour players served too (I know that Byron Nelson was 4F for a medical condition).  I sort of wonder how some didn't after the war.  I don't recall Arnie or Jack serving (that could just be because it's never been publicized, but I never heard anything about it), and that was a period when you were only exempt for college, critical industry, or medical condition.

I don't really see any similar entertainment or morale boosting option for a golfer, especially today in South Korea.  Despite the threat they live under, they are not at war, and if war comes, it will be right in their backyard, not on some front thousands of miles away.  I don't see any legitimate reason for a person to be exempted just because he happens to play golf. :no:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

It pretty much goes against human nature to sit by while someone pillages your home / town / city / country.

I am making a distinction of when someone can and cannot use the "I'm a pacifist" argument. You are free to have your own opinion of course, but if you can't or don't want to make that distinction then nothin I can do really.

"We can agree to disagree?" ;)

No it goes against human nature to sit by and not survive. Life is about survival. There is flight or fight syndrome. There is nothing in human nature with regards to protecting your home, town, city or country. There is human nature to protect yourself and your life. If that means running away or standing in fighting that is the choice of the person. Loyalty is not human nature.

There is no when or when not. A pacifist is a pacifists. If a true pacifist is given a gun and forced to march against an enemy then that pacifist will lay down his gun in battle and face his enemy with peace in mind not violence. In that regard, do you want a pacifist in battle who is a liability to others? That is what you will get when you force people to fight for a cause they do no believe in. You get liabilities.

Most so-called "pacifists" are so out of convenience or privilege.  When the chips are down, you find out just how peaceable you really are.  It's easy to sit back and call yourself a pacifist, but when you or your loved ones, or your lifestyle is threatened, then we find out just how deep those convictions run.  The Ghandi's of the world are a very rare breed.

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There is no when or when not. A pacifist is a pacifists. If a true pacifist is given a gun and forced to march against an enemy then that pacifist will lay down his gun in battle and face his enemy with peace in mind not violence. In that regard, do you want a pacifist in battle who is a liability to others? That is what you will get when you force people to fight for a cause they do no believe in. You get liabilities.

I am not arguing when a pacifist can be a pacifist. My opinion is that it would be stupid for a country to accept the excuse that the guy is a pacifist in the time of defending against an aggressor! If he is not going to pick up a gun I will make him do other things like bring water to the troops, or cut veggies, ect.... If he refused then I would jail him until he changed his mind.. I still wonder what does this "pacifist" do when a man with a gun goes into his house with bad intentions of harming his family.. Does he run or lay down what ever weapon ge could use and say I just want peace? FWIW we haven't heard that he is planning to use the pacifist excuse so this is all technically OT, but it is a possibility and I think that if he uses that excuse or if he renounces his citizenship he will be one hated man in SK and they will consider him a traitor. Basically loses his SK contingency (not that he would care, but I'm just saying)

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Most so-called "pacifists" are so out of convenience or privilege.  When the chips are down, you find out just how peaceable you really are.  It's easy to sit back and call yourself a pacifist, but when you or your loved ones, or your lifestyle is threatened, then we find out just how deep those convictions run.  The Ghandi's of the world are a very rare breed.

Even Ghandi belived it was cowardice to run when facing an opposition trying to eradicate you. He ultimately belived more lives can be saved by peaceful objection, but it wasn't in absolute terms.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by cubdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

The reality is that his country is bordered by one of the most dangerous and unstable countries in the world with which they have already had one major war, and his country believes they need to be prepared to defend themselves.  I have to say it is laughable to me to think that someone should get a special exemption from what everyone else has to do because they play golf.  When did being a pro golfer become something that gets this kind of special privilege?  IMO he should fulfill his obligation, as great golfers such as Hogan and Snead did before him, or renounce his citizenship.

Sometimes we need to step outside of the golf world into the wider one.

I stand by my comment that Bae is of greater value to his country playing golf than being in the military. There are many ways to serve your country besides donning a uniform. BTW I'm a 4 year Viet Nam vet.

cubdog

Agree.  There are other services he could do representing South Korea while still playing.

Such as?  In WWII a lot of Hollywood personalities were exempted, but they worked to help bolster morale, both at home and in the war theaters, during a desperate period in history.  At the same time, a lot of them did serve in combat (Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, Audie Murphy).  In fact a lot of PGA Tour players served too (I know that Byron Nelson was 4F for a medical condition).  I sort of wonder how some didn't after the war.  I don't recall Arnie or Jack serving (that could just be because it's never been publicized, but I never heard anything about it), and that was a period when you were only exempt for college, critical industry, or medical condition.

This is what I was referring too.  There are other ways to serve your country than active duty.

Ronald Reagan made films about the dangers of VD! :-)

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The reality is that his country is bordered by one of the most dangerous and unstable countries in the world with which they have already had one major war, and his country believes they need to be prepared to defend themselves.  I have to say it is laughable to me to think that someone should get a special exemption from what everyone else has to do because they play golf.  When did being a pro golfer become something that gets this kind of special privilege?  IMO he should fulfill his obligation, as great golfers such as Hogan and Snead did before him, or renounce his citizenship.

Sometimes we need to step outside of the golf world into the wider one.

You are a hero for saying that. The world needs more brave people.

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I find it interesting, in this time when people are calling for famous people not to get special treatment, that some people think he should be exempt. I side with those saying that he should serve like every other person is required to.

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More info.

Quote:

Disappointed and confused, Bae, 28, a two-time winner on the PGA Tour, promised to take legal action after the South Korean government refused to extend his visa beyond 2014. Bae was informed last month by South Korea's Military Manpower Association, without elaboration, that his request was denied and that he would face military conscription. According to South Korea's Yonhap News Service, he is required by law to return home within 30 days of the expiration.

Because South Korea remains at war with North Korea since the 1953 armistice halted fighting in the Korean War, all physically-able 18-35-year-old men are required by law to serve in the military for two years.

“I got the green card (to work in the U.S.)," Bae said at Kapalua Resort's Plantation Course, site of this week's Hyundai Tournament of Champions. "If I have a green card, I can extend five or six year more. I don’t know why they didn’t approve (an extension)."

Bae thought that once he received a green card in 2013, providing permanent resident status, he would continue to receive exemptions from the MMA because he intended to live and work in the U.S. without seeking citizenship.

http://golfweek.com/news/2015/jan/07/sang-moon-bae-pga-tour-south-korea-military-denied/

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The reality is that his country is bordered by one of the most dangerous and unstable countries in the world with which they have already had one major war, and his country believes they need to be prepared to defend themselves.  I have to say it is laughable to me to think that someone should get a special exemption from what everyone else has to do because they play golf.  When did being a pro golfer become something that gets this kind of special privilege?  IMO he should fulfill his obligation, as great golfers such as Hogan and Snead did before him, or renounce his citizenship.   Sometimes we need to step outside of the golf world into the wider one.

This.... [quote name="Jeremie Boop" url="/t/78998/san-moon-bae-faces-military-duty-in-south-korea/18#post_1091791"]I find it interesting, in this time when people are calling for famous people not to get special treatment, that some people think he should be exempt. I side with those saying that he should serve like every other person is required to.  [/quote] ....and this.

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Surprised he is not getting an exemption. It's not like other Koreans of prominence haven't been granted such exemptions. Koreans are crazy about golf and this guy is one of their very best, and also seems to be at a crucial, opportune time in his career. It is a blow to Korean golf. Oh well if it was good enough for KJ Choi and YE Yang, I think SMB can also fulfill his duties and carry on being successful. Although somewhere Seung-Yul Noh is probably freaking out right now.

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does he have any other recourse?  can he just stay here and apply for some kind of asylum from the US?

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Surprised he is not getting an exemption. It's not like other Koreans of prominence haven't been granted such exemptions. Koreans are crazy about golf and this guy is one of their very best, and also seems to be at a crucial, opportune time in his career. It is a blow to Korean golf. Oh well if it was good enough for KJ Choi and YE Yang, I think SMB can also fulfill his duties and carry on being successful. Although somewhere Seung-Yul Noh is probably freaking out right now.

If it is true that others have been given exemptions then I would want to hear more.. But just saying that and not giving us examples makes the rest of the readers either take your word for it, or others to go and research it (which I don't want to do right now), but if, just if this is true then I guess the reaction should be of no surprise! I would say go figure, double standards at their best!

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