Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[Pretzel]

Seems like using grease is illegal, but a low spin head which appears to accomplish that goal is legal?

Grease is an illegal modification of the club, one that could be changed from shot to shot based on what the player wanted. Designing the clubhead to reduce the spin in the same manner will provide that result on every shot to the same extent without the player being able to change it mid-round for his/her benefit. It's club modification versus club design, so two different methods of achieving the same goal.

[billchao]

I thought the topic was non-conforming drivers? Does the discussion of a driver with Vaseline on the face (a non-conforming driver) not count as the same thing?

There was a string of posts that are clearly off-topic that I was referring to. [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/79650/would-you-play-a-non-conforming-illegal-driver/30#post_1100119"] Seems like using grease is illegal, but a low spin head which appears to accomplish that goal is legal? What is illegal now might be legal in the future of golf? [/quote]That's not really the same thing. The act of doctoring the ball or clubs in any way is illegal, not the reason it is done. Low spin drivers that conform to USGA standards are simply an advancement in technology.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Doesn't this somewhat depend upon what they do to make it non-conforming?

From my condensed (120+ mixed 9 and 18 hole rounds in 6 months) experience, it's actually pretty obvious when someone is using non conforming drivers. It's really obvious from seeing which club they use for their approach. I think a lot of guys use them in the winter to compensate for distance loss in the colder weather?

In any case, the "club distance/driver distance percentage" is pretty accurate IMO.

For reference, this is what I am referring to: http://thesandtrap.com/t/79608/distance-ratio-are-your-iron-distances-proportionate-to-your-driver#post_1099364

Huh?  You are able to tell who uses non-conforming drivers based on the club they use for their approach shot?  That is silly.

Are there even any non-conforming drivers out there today?  (Except for the aforementioned 15 year old Callaway)

Nice way to start off a conversation?

Yes, it's really easy to do too.

For example, if my playing partner drives consistently the same distance as me, but then uses 4 clubs more than me on the approach something is cooked up about his driver. I went through an entire round wondering why a particular partner uses 4 clubs more on the approach. Then the conversation comes up between him and another player, and the truth comes out that it is a modified face with a whopping 0.92 to 0.94 COR?

I've met a few of people that probably do this in the winter (retired senior golfers).

The other less "silly" alternative to my statement is that my irons are way stronger than my driver, but we already established in another thread they they almost track perfectly with the driver distance in a standard way.

[Fourputt]

Guys, let's stick to the topic, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's most often done with the driver, so sticking a green isn't generally a factor in such a decision to cheat.

With the low spin drivers out today, this seems pointless. I can get down to 1900rpm on a good hit, and if I reduce the spin on my mis-hits, they wouldn't stay up in the air long enough for me to gain any benefit.

However, slice and hook spin would still be a factor.  If player fights a wicked slice, adding a little grease would straighten that out and probably add 20+ yards to his drives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Doesn't this somewhat depend upon what they do to make it non-conforming?

From my condensed (120+ mixed 9 and 18 hole rounds in 6 months) experience, it's actually pretty obvious when someone is using non conforming drivers. It's really obvious from seeing which club they use for their approach. I think a lot of guys use them in the winter to compensate for distance loss in the colder weather?

In any case, the "club distance/driver distance percentage" is pretty accurate IMO.

For reference, this is what I am referring to: http://thesandtrap.com/t/79608/distance-ratio-are-your-iron-distances-proportionate-to-your-driver#post_1099364

Huh?  You are able to tell who uses non-conforming drivers based on the club they use for their approach shot?  That is silly.

Are there even any non-conforming drivers out there today?  (Except for the aforementioned 15 year old Callaway)

Nice way to start off a conversation?

Yes, it's really easy to do too.

For example, if my playing partner drives consistently the same distance as me, but then uses 4 clubs more than me on the approach something is cooked up about his driver. I went through an entire round wondering why a particular partner uses 4 clubs more on the approach. Then the conversation comes up between him and another player, and the truth comes out that it is a modified face with a whopping 0.92 to 0.94 COR?

I've met a few of people that probably do this in the winter (retired senior golfers).

The other less "silly" alternative to my statement is that my irons are way stronger than my driver, but we already established in another thread they they almost track perfectly with the driver distance in a standard way.

This does not necessarily relate.  I was always among the longer drivers in the Men's Club when I was playing in my prime, but I was never more than barely average with my irons.  I really don't know what the difference was, as I never bothered with lessons, but that's how it was.  So by your reasoning I must have been cheating with the driver - you would be dead wrong about that.

[lumpuckeroo]

This is admirable, but if you use this super driver with super balls it would be pretty obvious to your buddies.

For your enjoyment of the game, though, this is a smart move and I know people who do it.

I bet if more of us amateurs used non conforming equipment the game could gain some popularity as well. I just wonder how much you can increase the efficiency?

Their not that bright!!!

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

Guys, let's stick to the topic, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's most often done with the driver, so sticking a green isn't generally a factor in such a decision to cheat.

With the low spin drivers out today, this seems pointless. I can get down to 1900rpm on a good hit, and if I reduce the spin on my mis-hits, they wouldn't stay up in the air long enough for me to gain any benefit.

However, slice and hook spin would still be a factor.  If player fights a wicked slice, adding a little grease would straighten that out and probably add 20+ yards to his drives.

I wonder if someone plans to make a new driver designed to reduce side spin like the RSI irons from TM? Side slots could probably increase the trampoline effect too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

This is admirable, but if you use this super driver with super balls it would be pretty obvious to your buddies.

For your enjoyment of the game, though, this is a smart move and I know people who do it.

I bet if more of us amateurs used non conforming equipment the game could gain some popularity as well. I just wonder how much you can increase the efficiency?

Their not that bright!!!

ROFL

[MrFlipper]

Are there even any non-conforming drivers out there today?  (Except for the aforementioned 15 year old Callaway)

Sure. One I remember from an earlier life was condor, guess they are still around under a new mgmt, just googled them to see. http://www.condorgolf.com/

I assume there are others, I don't really follow this stuff closely. I do remember the condor ball had a different name so that people wouldn't know it was a condor, of course that name got out too and then everyone knew.

And I remember vaseline as being big with long irons and fairway woods, too, anything that you sliced real easy you could take the curve out. Just picture a real squirty 4 iron flyer.

[mvmac]

Doesn't this somewhat depend upon what they do to make it non-conforming?

I'm sure the reason why it's non-conforming will be well advertised.

Does the discussion of a driver with Vaseline on the face (a non-conforming driver) not count as the same thing?

No the topic is: "If a major manufacturer offered a non-conforming driver that promised an extra 15-20 yards, would you put it in your bag?"

We're not talking about doctoring the golf club. We're talking about TaylorMade hypothetically coming out with a driver that is over the COR limit and selling them in golf stores/pro shops.

Yes, it's really easy to do too.

For example, if my playing partner drives consistently the same distance as me, but then uses 4 clubs more than me on the approach something is cooked up about his driver. I went through an entire round wondering why a particular partner uses 4 clubs more on the approach. Then the conversation comes up between him and another player, and the truth comes out that it is a modified face with a whopping 0.92 to 0.94 COR?

I've met a few of people that probably do this in the winter (retired senior golfers).

I'm not questioning your experience but I don't think this is as common as you think it is.

However, slice and hook spin would still be a factor.  If player fights a wicked slice, adding a little grease would straighten that out and probably add 20+ yards to his drives.

Again we're not talking about "greasing" your current driver.

[ev780]

I would rather play with a conforming club all the time, so when I make it to the pro level I don't have to revamp my game and change out clubs. I also wouldn't want anyone accusing me of making it to that level with an illegal driver.. Especially since distance matters so much more than accuracy. ;)

Nice job capturing current events!!!!

Voted no for two reasons.

1 - Even though I don't play in tournaments or even gamble with my friends, should an opportunity arise and I decide to play in a tournament, I'd like to be able to use equipment I'm familiar with and not have to readjust on the fly.

2 - I like to be true to myself and my progress.  My HC is what it is and whereas it's nothing to brag about, it's gotten lower over time, I hope it goes lower in the future, and I'm proud of the work I've put in to get it where it currently is.

Your are allowed to play golf without gambling?!?!?!?!  Who knew.  :)

Sorry, I don't man this to sound snarky but why do you play?

[Golfingdad]

Nice way to start off a conversation?

Just trying to emphasize my level of confusion.

For example, if my playing partner drives consistently the same distance as me, but then uses 4 clubs more than me on the approach something is cooked up about his driver. I went through an entire round wondering why a particular partner uses 4 clubs more on the approach. Then the conversation comes up between him and another player, and the truth comes out that it is a modified face with a whopping 0.92 to 0.94 COR?

If I was your coach I'd recommend that perhaps you spend less time wondering why your playing partners use 4 more clubs on their approach and more time worrying about your swing and getting more GIRs.

Your are allowed to play golf without gambling?!?!?!?!  Who knew.  :)

Sorry, I don't man this to sound snarky but why do you play?

Ummmm, and this is a cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh-raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy wild guess here and probably dead wrong, but maybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee .......................   fun???

(I don't know if I was successful, but I DID mean for that to sound snarky.)

[Lihu]

If I was your coach I'd recommend that perhaps you spend less time wondering why your playing partners use 4 more clubs on their approach and more time worrying about your swing and getting more GIRs.

I would say my coach(es) ( @mvmac and Dana) are doing a a great job! 3 GIR for 9 holes from the 6800 yard tees on a bad day, is nothing to sneeze at. OTOH, I'm not that confident that I could do that much better GIR-wise on a good day.

Hey, I'm playing way better than I ever thought I could anyway so there. . .

[RFKFREAK]

Their not that bright!!!

Your are allowed to play golf without gambling?!?!?!?!  Who knew.  :)

Sorry, I don't man this to sound snarky but why do you play?

Long story short, a few years back some good friends who I used to play billiards with started playing golf regularly after not playing since they were teenagers.  I never looked into playing with them because I didn't feel I had the disposable income in relation to my budget to play regularly.  In addition to that, my friends never thought of inviting me to play because even though I had clubs, I'm sure they didn't want to play with a beginner who would likely spray the ball all over the place and slow them up.

Fast forward a few years, those friends rarely played billiards anymore and seeing as I was in a better economic situation, I thought it might be a way to hang out with my friends more often.  So, I convinced one of my friends to give me a basic lesson at the range and from that I guess he thought I wouldn't suck as much as he thought I would.  After that, I played with them a few times and realized I really enjoyed playing and got addicted.

I don't like making -EV bets, so because most of them don't keep HC and they're better than I am, there isn't a good way that I've come across that would make it a competitive wager.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Doesn't this somewhat depend upon what they do to make it non-conforming?

I'm sure the reason why it's non-conforming will be well advertised.

Aha!!!!

Lihu the psychic (deep in thought with hand over forehead and a trance like stance):

Hmmmm, I see a driver with slits on the sides of the face and the deep channel on the bottom with strategically placed tungsten weights.

[DrvFrShow]

When I get to be about 80, yeah. I won't be competing then. So I'll need the extra 20-30 yds. So what? I don't like hitting 4 shots to reach a par 4 green. Gimme an entire set.

I keep reading about golf courses getting longer and participation in the sport going down. I also read about people struggling with distance and manufacturers coming out with new voodoo every year to increase club distances. So with this being the case, why are courses getting longer in length while people struggle with distance? I mean we have the "tee it forward" stuff going on, but then people's egos get in the way of that. Shouldn't they be building 6600 yd courses instead of 7300 - 7500 yd courses?

[Lihu]

When I get to be about 80, yeah. I won't be competing then. So I'll need the extra 20-30 yds. So what? I don't like hitting 4 shots to reach a par 4 green. Gimme an entire set.

I keep reading about golf courses getting longer and participation in the sport going down. I also read about people struggling with distance and manufacturers coming out with new voodoo every year to increase club distances. So with this being the case, why are courses getting longer in length while people struggle with distance? I mean we have the "tee it forward" stuff going on, but then people's egos get in the way of that. Shouldn't they be building 6600 yd courses instead of 7300 - 7500 yd courses?

Plus, it's a way more exciting game if (when) a player can hit 250-300 yards, if the average person can hit a lot farther and straighter I think more people will do it. Rounds will take a lot less time too.

[iacas]

Funny how the presumption is made that the ball or distance will be further in using an illegal non conforming drive.

Nobody's assuming. It's in the question. :)

---

I voted no, fwiw. Maybe occasionally just for fun, but… Meh. Even that doesn't seem too fun.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

When I get to be about 80, yeah. I won't be competing then. So I'll need the extra 20-30 yds. So what? I don't like hitting 4 shots to reach a par 4 green. Gimme an entire set.

I keep reading about golf courses getting longer and participation in the sport going down. I also read about people struggling with distance and manufacturers coming out with new voodoo every year to increase club distances. So with this being the case, why are courses getting longer in length while people struggle with distance? I mean we have the "tee it forward" stuff going on, but then people's egos get in the way of that. Shouldn't they be building 6600 yd courses instead of 7300 - 7500 yd courses?

Plus, it's a way more exciting game if (when) a player can hit 250-300 yards, if the average person can hit a lot farther and straighter I think more people will do it. Rounds will take a lot less time too.

I don't see it.  I don't find it any more exciting than it was 40 years ago.  The game is challenging, thought provoking, strategically stimulating, but no more now than it was when I first started playing semi-seriously in the 70's.  Would I like to still be as long as I was 15 years ago?  Sure, but not at the expense of what the game means to me.  Playing with illegal clubs would be no different to me than hitting mulligans, using foot wedges, or (and this is a classic) ignoring strokes because I should have hit it better than that.  In any of those acts, I'd just be cheating myself, and that would take all meaning out of the game for me.  I've never figured out how to successfully lie to myself - I always catch the lie.

[newtogolf]

At this point in time I have no interest in using non-conforming equipment but I have no issue with others using it as long as they aren't playing competitively.